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Thread: driver advice for 2360 horns on Altec A7/828s

  1. #1
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    driver advice for 2360 horns on Altec A7/828s

    I've decided that I would like to try JBL 2360 horns on my Altec Voice of the Theater A7/828 speakers. I've picked up a few basics in these threads: crossover around 700Hz and TAD 4002 is the best HF driver. I'm not against buying a used set of 4002s- just not yet. I see there are some decent looking 2446Js available very affordable and I am on the brink of buying a pair. JBL lists 2446, 2450, and 2485 as the drivers for these horns.

    Until I decide to get the TADs, is the 2446J a decent approximate 2nd best for the 2360 horns? Diaphragm changes helping?

    Does the TAD 4002 bolt up to the 2360 throat?

    My A7/VOTTs have GPA 416-16B Alnico LF drivers, Emilar EH800 horns on Altec 802D HF drivers, 16 Ohm. Original N-500-E Xovers rebuilt with Russian capacitors. They are driven by Bottlehead 8w 300B SET monobloc amps. My A7s seem heavy on the high end- I have the Xover attenuation knobs on max, -6dB. I don't know why this is- would prefer to have a system that does not HF need attenuation. I figure, at minimum, I will have to get Altec or GPA 515B Alnco LF drivers to try to match the SPL of the JBL 2360/2446Js. Also will need to make a new Xover at 700Hz.

    I apologize for fact that this topic has been touched upon in various threads- I have been looking thru them for a couple of days and they have become a bit of a blur. I am hoping the accelerate the decision process by asking this question fresh to people who are WAY ahead of me in knowledge on this stuff.

    Thanks, Kip......

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    The 2446 (or 2450) are a good match to the 2360 horn. The response is smooth and very predictable. I've only used or worked with about 500 or so of them as they were very popular in movie theatres since the early 80s (noting that the driver in the early 80s would have been the 2445 before the 2446 came out and some VERY early 2360/24xx drivers would have been earlier forms of the 2400 series but the first one I worked with was the 2445/2360).

    In cinema, we crossover at 500Hz to keep dialog out of the crossover region. The 2360/2446 will have no problem going down that low. Note too, unless you plan to have the horn be proud to the LF cabinet, you will likely need to introduce some form of time-delay on the LF section to get time-alignment at crossover.

    My personal recommendation for a large-horn A5 (because if you are considering a 515 and a large format horn...it isn't an A7 anymore) is the MR94 with a 288G-L (I like the Tangerine phase plug). The 299 is also a good HF driver (same as the 288...just differs in the aluminum versus Pascalite diaphragm). To my ears, it just sounds better.

    As for Bill's LF drivers, I REALLY like the 515-LF. I know you are indicating a like for Alnico drivers but this driver seems to be just incredibly smooth and better responding than other 515 incarnations and I think I've used them all, at some point (definitely, I've used or worked with the 515B a lot). The last time I got the 515-8LF, Bill made them with vents on the dust dome so it has the proper "look" though it is normally issued with a rear-vent.

  3. #3
    Junior Member macsic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kip.duff View Post
    I've decided that I would like to try JBL 2360 horns on my Altec Voice of the Theater A7/828 speakers. I've picked up a few basics in these threads: crossover around 700Hz and TAD 4002 is the best HF driver. I'm not against buying a used set of 4002s- just not yet. I see there are some decent looking 2446Js available very affordable and I am on the brink of buying a pair. JBL lists 2446, 2450, and 2485 as the drivers for these horns.

    Until I decide to get the TADs, is the 2446J a decent approximate 2nd best for the 2360 horns? Diaphragm changes helping?

    Does the TAD 4002 bolt up to the 2360 throat?

    My A7/VOTTs have GPA 416-16B Alnico LF drivers, Emilar EH800 horns on Altec 802D HF drivers, 16 Ohm. Original N-500-E Xovers rebuilt with Russian capacitors. They are driven by Bottlehead 8w 300B SET monobloc amps. My A7s seem heavy on the high end- I have the Xover attenuation knobs on max, -6dB. I don't know why this is- would prefer to have a system that does not HF need attenuation. I figure, at minimum, I will have to get Altec or GPA 515B Alnco LF drivers to try to match the SPL of the JBL 2360/2446Js. Also will need to make a new Xover at 700Hz.

    I apologize for fact that this topic has been touched upon in various threads- I have been looking thru them for a couple of days and they have become a bit of a blur. I am hoping the accelerate the decision process by asking this question fresh to people who are WAY ahead of me in knowledge on this stuff.

    Thanks, Kip......
    Hello,
    I also have VOTT with 416, I tried 515-16G and I prefer 416 for my home use, you have to consider this because there are often good products but used in the wrong places. Ah yes I doubled the VOTT to increase because the 2450 are really effective and applied a - 5db gain on 2450 to balance everything, I'm still besides tinkering with these parameters now. I have had several drivers for different horns over the years and what I prefer among what I have tried are 2450 with 2397, I have tried 2360 with different drivers like 2440, 2441, 2450 and I kept the 2450, take note that the 2450 are IMHO better if the diaphragms used are the aquaplased because the Ti Ribbed are definitely worse and they would never have replaced the 2441. Let's go back to the 2360 that I had also, these are big horns that were designed for large listening rooms and once again for my use these give me a less good image than the 2397 which are what I have preferred so far. A friend who also had 2360s replaced them with 2395s yet the 2360s have an excellent reputation, I think that the listening room has a lot to do with it because the 2360 projects much more forward then you have to have a large room for the image to build.
    I have no experience with TAD but with what I currently have I really don't need it maybe until I listen to it :-)
    With time and experience we sometimes realize that where they are used is very important.
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    Junior Member macsic's Avatar
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    sorry for the duplicate
    Music is emotion.

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    Thanks guys. I'm gonna research your answers and reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macsic View Post
    Hello,
    take note that the 2450 are IMHO better if the diaphragms used are the aquaplased because the Ti Ribbed are definitely worse and they would never have replaced the 2441.
    "Aquaplased": I've done some searches, I'm not seeing a supplier. Are these original JBL or aftermarket?

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kip.duff View Post
    "Aquaplased": I've done some searches, I'm not seeing a supplier. Are these original JBL or aftermarket?
    Others can pop in with the particular model numbers, but most of the JBL 4" diaphragms are interchangeable. Some of JBL's drivers came with a 4" titanium diaphragm that was coated with a damping compound called aquaplas by JBL. They use this coating on a number of woofers as well.


    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Others can pop in with the particular model numbers, but most of the JBL 4" diaphragms are interchangeable. Some of JBL's drivers came with a 4" titanium diaphragm that was coated with a damping compound called aquaplas by JBL. They use this coating on a number of woofers as well.


    Widget
    So these are JBL parts. I can research that. At this point, I'm steering towards 2450- and when I get one it may already have those- or I can install some.

    This Aquaplas thing sounds important- my concern with the original 511B horns on my A7s was aggressiveness and glare- were harsh sometimes.

  9. #9
    Junior Member macsic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kip.duff View Post
    So these are JBL parts. I can research that. At this point, I'm steering towards 2450- and when I get one it may already have those- or I can install some.

    This Aquaplas thing sounds important- my concern with the original 511B horns on my A7s was aggressiveness and glare- were harsh sometimes.
    I got these diaphragms in 2451.



    I interchanged the diaphragms of the 2451 which are 1.5 inch but the motor is the same, with those of the 2450 which originally had Ti Ribbed.



    I have not tried it but I doubt if you compare 2446 and 2450 using the same diaphragms that you will notice a difference. If you have the money there is another option the Be diaphragms which are unanimous.
    So, yes the diaphragm is really important.
    Music is emotion.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kip.duff View Post
    This Aquaplas thing sounds important- my concern with the original 511B horns on my A7s was aggressiveness and glare- were harsh sometimes.
    Aquaplas helps, but the horn, crossover frequency and type, and how hard you drive it will also contribute to the harshness you mention.


    Widget

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    So, at this point, I'm eBaying for 2446Js- I prefer the terminal connection style. There's a pair in FL, but description is vague. Will get Aquaplas after I get the drivers. Chances seem slim that they will come with Aquaplas.

    For now, looking for the 2397 horns: more practical way to get started. Still believe I will get some 2360s, but my space is limited. Where there's a will, there's a way- even though the 2360s will be a tough fit in my room These would probably have to be local considering shipping- but at least I'm in SoCal where there's probably a few of these floating around.

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    I got some very nice (as new) 2446s with close serial numbers off eBay for $260 + $50 shipping for the pair. Will be trying the original Ti diaphragms for now, but am going to get at minimum the Aquaplas- or possible the Truextent Be frams ($1500?) I'm looking at both 2397s and 2360s on eBay- and I had a question about 2360s.

    So far, I have not got much/any info on different versions of 2360. I am close to buying some that are the split type, which I think is later version. Two questions: 1) of the different versions of the 2360, are some considered significantly better? 2) Does the split make it easier to ship (they are in US but far from me)?

    I also need to revisit the issue some brought up about my desire to increase output of the A7 boxes to come closer to the SPL of the horns. It seems you believe the 515B, though more efficient, would not be a satisfactory or synergistic way to bring Dbs up in my A7s to be on par with the horns. I thought the 515B was designed for A7 boxes.

    Thanks, Kip.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sguttag View Post

    As for Bill's LF drivers, I REALLY like the 515-LF. I know you are indicating a like for Alnico drivers but this driver seems to be just incredibly smooth and better responding than other 515 incarnations and I think I've used them all, at some point (definitely, I've used or worked with the 515B a lot). The last time I got the 515-8LF, Bill made them with vents on the dust dome so it has the proper "look" though it is normally issued with a rear-vent.
    Squttag: your audio experience sounds amazing- thanks for response.

    I have heard others say that GPA have scored with the 515LF. My mention of Alnico is just a vague superstition that they might sound better- not married to the idea. At this point, I am on a JBL 2446J/2360 and 2446J/2397 path for better or worse- I'm not against MR94/288- just on the JBL path for now. As mentioned in original post, I want to up the efficiency of the A7 boxes- currently, they have GPA 416B (Alnico) drivers. There is not direct efficiency specs comparison for for GPA 416B, 515LF, and 515B Classic. The 515B and 515LF both show 102 dB in a 828 cab. All list Gauss: 11,000, 14,750, and 14,750. So, by comparing Gauss, I see that in theory both 515s should be considerably more efficient. My plan was to get some of these 515s for the A7/828s- any problem with that? Macsic also mentioned possible lack of compatibility.

    Thanks for your time, Kip......

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    What is your need for the extra efficiency? That isn't necessarily the key to good sound. The 515-8G is a more efficient driver than the others but it at the cost of cone mass (take a feel of the 515-G compared to any other 515 driver. The 515-G, while more efficient, isn't as good as the GPA 515-LF, in my opinion, in terms of frequency response and power handling and overall sound. I'd give up the 1dB of efficiency in a heartbeat.

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    Hi,
    I compared the 515-16G with 416-16 and despite several trials and combinations I always preferred the 416-16 but I do not know more for the other versions of the 515, regarding the efficiency I simply doubled the boxes and an adjustment on my DSP XTA and voila.



    Currently I'm looking for an amp to power the 416 because my PP2A3 lack a little juice for my rockier days. About the 2360 that I also owned for a while, I liked it but I much prefer the 2397 for the listening room that I have, with 2360 you have to be much further to appreciate, which is why they were designed so in a very large listening room the 2360 would be at their best. With the 2397 the image is better and they disappear, I like.
    Keep going, you're on a good track.
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