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Thread: Building my dream system, need lots of advise!

  1. #196
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    You might be able to moderate the problem with Minidsp EQ.

    I had a similar problem in an apartment living room 20 years ago that was 4 m square and solid brick and concrete slab. The bass tended to hum. I found turning down the bass below 50 hertz on one channel helped.
    I have a 10-15dB suckout. There is no way to fix the dip with EQ, it is a self cancellation. I lumped 9 inch 30"x48" think broad band panels in the corner and all they did was add 0.5-1dB. I would have to fill every wall corner of the whole room with that to get back that 10dB.


  2. #197
    On Holidays Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Wow,

    That’s annoying?

    Have you looked at it on REW?

    Have you thought about renting a pad out in Palm Springs? Some of the modernist homes out there have substantial living spaces.

    Honey we need change of pace.......
    We loved it. The drive out of LA does suck though. The drive back to Santa Monica sucked more!

    Send the wife out shopping with the other wives.

    Then turn the room upside down.

    Try offsetting the location of the enclosures so its asymmetrical.

    Like moving them 30% into the room just to see what happens.

    Stuff like that.

    Also try moving the enclosures in or out from the wall and off the floor.

    No room is every totally screwed if you can tolerate some changes.

    I get some of the best sound when Madam President is out shopping ��!

    Being her National Security Adviser l have a degree of influence like look at the Manley Stingray l bought you for your birthday darling...Lol��.

  3. #198
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    lol. I am afraid my last name is not Zuckerberg nor Gates nor Bezos, otherwise I would have bought a prime piece of land and build my own custom room!

    I do have my own room in my house that let me hide from the family when I need some me time to enjoy music, sometimes even late into the evening without bothering them. When my mom came to visit a couple of years ago (my mom is an audiophile and inspired my music passion and hifi hobby greatly), we sat and listened until 4am! I got lucky with having my own room, what I didn't get lucky is that the room is above the garage so it inherited a 2 car garage dimension which unfortunately falls exactly 20x20ft. Win some, lose some.

    Over the past year or so, I have accumulated more than a dozen panels including absorption and diffusion panels that I either purchased or built (I just made a set of 4 QRD13 panels last month!) and experimented a fair amount with it. I do make measurement with REW, esp for low frequencies. I don't do that much with high freq as most of my issues are imaging and echo/siblance and can't exactly measure that.

    I can tame the high frequencies in my room pretty well. A few absorption panels and a few diffusion panels and it is really quite nice already. No glare, good imaging even with wide dispersion horns.

    What I have learned is that to deal with bass, it takes a LOT more material. Small room can use a few bass traps, but for large room, I will need a huge amount of coverage. To achieve good coverage in a small room is ok. To do it in a 20x20 room, I will need meters and meters of very thick absorption. Even membrane based panels is the same. Paul of PSAudio tried to use Helmholtz. He built some into his room corners but he basically said it only gave him 1dB. I need 10db! I have seen youtube videos of professionally done installation when they line the whole side walls with Helmholtz. That's what it will take to tame the bass. Unfortunately I just cannot afford to do that. The sacrifice is too much.

    I am sure there are solutions, I just need to do more research and consult more experience folks online to figure out how. But for now I have done enough with the room. I enjoy my time more working on the system first.

    Having said that. While there is a hole in the response, I am enjoying the sound coming out of the system immensely. I believe while I cannot hear the sound, I can actually *feel* it.

  4. #199
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    It seems you have a lot of experience with acoustic panels allready.
    You probably know this product allready, but if not have a look:
    https://www.gikacoustics.com/product...bass-trap-t40/

    I believe it would take at least 8-10 panels in your room.
    But these should be very efficient, as they can be custom tuned to your specific frequency.

    Another approach would be to ask a studio-designer to calculate a helmholtz-resonator for you. You can do the expensive part of building it yourself...
    When finished, the studio-designer should visit for a last fine-tuning...

    Both of these approaches will cost 2000-3000$, but if you can spend 1500$ on woofers this should be considered.

  5. #200
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    It seems you have a lot of experience with acoustic panels allready.
    You probably know this product allready, but if not have a look:
    https://www.gikacoustics.com/product...bass-trap-t40/

    I believe it would take at least 8-10 panels in your room.
    But these should be very efficient, as they can be custom tuned to your specific frequency.

    Another approach would be to ask a studio-designer to calculate a helmholtz-resonator for you. You can do the expensive part of building it yourself...
    When finished, the studio-designer should visit for a last fine-tuning...

    Both of these approaches will cost 2000-3000$, but if you can spend 1500$ on woofers this should be considered.
    I did some research on both membrane / diaphragmatic absorber and Helmholtz. it seems that to go down to 50Hz they need to be in the region of more than 2m^2 each panel and 10" thick. There is a guy who build some room height ones with steel/rubber membrane but he never published the measurement. It look very involved. I don't know if I am prepared to have a few of those in my room at the moment. And my research kinda ended there as there are other things to play with...

    As for GIK, they never published the data for their T40. The data presented have absorption peaked at 100Hz which indicates it is for their T100 panels.

    If I do for it, the sacrifice will be quite a bit. Not only cost but space. It is a tough one.

  6. #201
    On Holidays Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    What you could try is a local sub right near your listening position and inject the missing bass.

    A local sub is referred to as global bass as l recall. Itís on top of you so to speak so there is little interference to be had.

    I would simply place one of the enclosures right next to your seat as a trial with the other in the current position and see what happens. I imagine this would fill the hole you have.

    If it works then itís a much more viable thing to acquire a sub which is specific to that role.

    Some subs like the SVS have very good Dsp that allows you to program what the sub does so integration should not be a barrier to making it work. Buy one with a 10 day return policy abs try it out.

    I think you might like it.

  7. #202
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    What you could try is a local sub right near your listening position and inject the missing bass.

    A local sub is referred to as global bass as l recall. Itís on top of you so to speak so there is little interference to be had.

    I would simply place one of the enclosures right next to your seat as a trial with the other in the current position and see what happens. I imagine this would fill the hole you have.

    If it works then itís a much more viable thing to acquire a sub which is specific to that role.

    Some subs like the SVS have very good Dsp that allows you to program what the sub does so integration should not be a barrier to making it work. Buy one with a 10 day return policy abs try it out.

    I think you might like it.
    Yes. In fact, not right next to the chair, but 2 subs, one each to the left and right on the side wall will fill in all the holes. I actually modeled it in REW before. What remains to be found out is that, while that will fill in the FR, I wonder how that will sound? time to borrow 2 subs from somewhere.

  8. #203
    On Holidays Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    I if you get a descent FR in the bass that is about all you need to know. Most subs have a phase adjustment

    Beyond that do fall into the trap of trying to predict what might work or not work.

    It comes down to some practical experimentation.

    There are always going to be compromises that you have to accept.

    You might actually prefer the sound with the subs as the 4367 is not known for its low bass extension.

  9. #204
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    Don't know what your situation is with your home but if it were possible to build a wall in your listening room to change the dimensions to approx 13'x20' if your ceiling is 8' high, or approx 14'x20' if 9' high, you'd be very close to the Golden rule for dimensions for optimal sound. Install a door in the wall and you'd still have access to the area for storage. Please disregard if your home is a rental.

  10. #205
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Don't know what your situation is with your home but if it were possible to build a wall in your listening room to change the dimensions to approx 13'x20' if your ceiling is 8' high, or approx 14'x20' if 9' high, you'd be very close to the Golden rule for dimensions for optimal sound. Install a door in the wall and you'd still have access to the area for storage. Please disregard if your home is a rental.
    That is what I was thinking too. You can even incorporate soffits to hide the speakers.


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  11. #206
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Don't know what your situation is with your home but if it were possible to build a wall in your listening room to change the dimensions to approx 13'x20' if your ceiling is 8' high, or approx 14'x20' if 9' high, you'd be very close to the Golden rule for dimensions for optimal sound. Install a door in the wall and you'd still have access to the area for storage. Please disregard if your home is a rental.
    yes. unfortunately that's out of the question.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpsmash View Post
    I did some research on both membrane / diaphragmatic absorber and Helmholtz. it seems that to go down to 50Hz they need to be in the region of more than 2m^2 each panel and 10" thick.
    The GIK Scopus is exactly 10" thick
    But they don`t have to be 2m≤ each panel, that might be true for membrane absorbers using steel plates. You will need several square meters of total absorption surface, that is correct!!


    Quote Originally Posted by jmpsmash View Post
    As for GIK, they never published the data for their T40. The data presented have absorption peaked at 100Hz which indicates it is for their T100 panels.
    They have, here you go:

    Name:  Source GIK ACOUSTICS.png
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    Name:  source is GIK ACOUSTICS.jpg
Views: 162
Size:  47.3 KB

    As you notice, in one picture the T40 peaks at 40hz, on the other picture at 50hz... I donīt know the reason, please contact GIK. But I have once phoned with them and you can have these specifically tuned! So measure with REW and let them build T40 panels with center-frequency of 38hz, 42hz, 47hz, etc.... Whatever your rooms asks for.

  13. #208
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Thankr Dr. db. The reason I say that is they have published official measurements by some lab for the T100. But such a measurement don't exist for the other 2 models. I do feel that at some point I need to give GIK a call...

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