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Thread: Building my dream system, need lots of advise!

  1. #211
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Have a talk to Rhob who recently did a passive monitor thread

    I have not tried my M2 horns yet.

    What you will find is that the passive compensation will require some tweaking to get it to your own liking. A flat response may not be ideal in your environment because these waveguides send the same output over a wide field into your room. So it might sound a bit too crisp or bright if you have it flat. So a mid tilt in the response above 1000 hertz maybe preferred.

    The 2397 has wide coverage angle and a big open presentation but it falls off quickly above 10,000 hertz.

    Using it in a 3 way with a 2405 you can manually modify the driver levels to adjust the tonal balance.
    Hi Ian,

    The 4367 passive crossover was posted in one of the thread. I looked at it. One of the poles essentially started around 8kHz which compensates for the D2430K slope. Pretty wild but I will have to do something similar. I have been playing around with different orders for the passive of the 2405/2441/2216ND1 so hopefully it won't be hard to pull that off. I plan to play around with active crossover first and gradually migrate to passive.

    As for the 2441/2397/2405. I really do like the sound. However, neither the 2441 nor the 2405 are perfectly matched. Not from measurement nor from listening.

    My main concern is how the D2430K+STX825 will sound. I am hopeful that having a new pair they will be closer matched. But will they sound "better" or "worse"?

  2. #212
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpsmash View Post
    However, neither the 2441 nor the 2405 are perfectly matched. Not from measurement nor from listening.
    Can you elaborate?

    Widget

  3. #213
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Can you elaborate?

    Widget
    for both driver, both frequency response and impedance measurements, measured from REW and DATS respectively, don't match. Probably due to diaphragm getting old. I tried a pair of Radian 1246 and they measured fairly closely. Unfortunately the Radian has a huge dip at 1.5kHz and I had problem aligning the voice coil (didn't have problem with the 2441 original one).

  4. #214
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Have a talk to Rhob who recently did a passive monitor thread

    I have not tried my M2 horns yet.
    That's a great thread. Pretty close to what I am envisioning. I am gonna try the STX825 first, quite a bit more affordable to start.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Your just going to have to try it yourself

  6. #216
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Your just going to have to try it yourself
    Yeah. I just placed order for D2430K + STX825. I am not the patience type.

  7. #217
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpsmash View Post
    for both driver, both frequency response and impedance measurements, measured from REW and DATS respectively, don't match. Probably due to diaphragm getting old. I tried a pair of Radian 1246 and they measured fairly closely. Unfortunately the Radian has a huge dip at 1.5kHz and I had problem aligning the voice coil (didn't have problem with the 2441 original one).
    Got it. Yes, we often hear people's reviews of vintage speakers, drivers, and electronics... if you can't verify that they are up to spec, then you don't really know what you are listening to.

    The effects of age on HF drivers in general can be tough and for these JBLs which often saw pro audio duty it is particularly difficult to find examples that are still up to spec, and finding a matched pair is even tougher.

    In the early 2000s I was experimenting with a similar system to yours. I had factory rebuilt 2441s (yes, they used to do that ) and carefully rebuilt 2405s above 2202s and dual 2235Hs in a 4355 variant. They were impressive at high SPLs, but I never loved them at more reasonable levels and while I like the sound of the 2397, controlling that wide dispersion was problematic for me.

    Going the M2 clone route is probably your best bet. The parts are all available new... not cheap, but based on my experience with JBL, if you don't buy them while they are available, you may be very disappointed in six months when they go on the NLA list.


    Widget

  8. #218
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    ...and why anybody contemplating a build from new-ish JBL should invest in a backup set of parts. Last time I looked, even things like 2405 diaphragms were NLA, JBL has evidently quit supporting a lot of legacy equipment. If you build a system around any of the new-ish stuff that Harman didn't really want to sell in the first place, buy spares now.

  9. #219
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Got it. Yes, we often hear people's reviews of vintage speakers, drivers, and electronics... if you can't verify that they are up to spec, then you don't really know what you are listening to.
    Agree. They sound very good, but probably a bit beyond their prime and not in their best performance. I do like the sound of the combo, so much detail, microdynamic and smooth at the same time. Many friends who came and listen to them have commented that they are ranked some of the top they've heard. But personally living with them for a long time all the imperfections sticks out more than the perfections. And of course, there is the urge to continue explore and learn about what else is out there. And esp something within the modern productions.


    The effects of age on HF drivers in general can be tough and for these JBLs which often saw pro audio duty it is particularly difficult to find examples that are still up to spec, and finding a matched pair is even tougher.

    In the early 2000s I was experimenting with a similar system to yours. I had factory rebuilt 2441s (yes, they used to do that ) and carefully rebuilt 2405s above 2202s and dual 2235Hs in a 4355 variant. They were impressive at high SPLs, but I never loved them at more reasonable levels and while I like the sound of the 2397, controlling that wide dispersion was problematic for me.
    I think I understand what you are saying. I never was able to control it. And as a result there is certain disconnect and incoherence in the transition. That, and also the issue with a 2405 combined with 2441 transition. When they are far time aligned, there is no hope of phase alignment at crossover. And even when time aligned, it was still not smooth enough. I am expecting the D2430K solve that problem with dual diaphragm.

    Going the M2 clone route is probably your best bet. The parts are all available new... not cheap, but based on my experience with JBL, if you don't buy them while they are available, you may be very disappointed in six months when they go on the NLA list.

    Widget
    great advise. I am still doing my research. plan is to try the STX825 first. see if I can work with the frequency variation. Then try the M2 one. Then I can decide which one to go with. I also learned a bit about the cabinet building and I think if I do decide to go with one of the two, I can build a new cabinet that will integrate the 2216ND1 and the horn into one neat package. Might end up with a 4367 clone, or M2 clone.

  10. #220
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Greg Timber’s advice is to use a 3rd order electrical filter on the 2405 per 3144 schematic. I would look at the Jbl 3107 passive crossover for clues.

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    Maybe you can use some dusted 4" titanium - diaphragms in your horndrivers?

    These should be available new for aprox 120$ and should be some kind similar to the 2441 type of sound.
    That would remain the setup and crossover you have in general, but with fresh parts

  12. #222
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Greg Timber’s advice is to use a 3rd order electrical filter on the 2405 per 3144 schematic. I would look at the Jbl 3107 passive crossover for clues.
    I modeled it in xsim and with some tweak they look pretty good. I will try to build it up to see how it sounds.

  13. #223
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    Maybe you can use some dusted 4" titanium - diaphragms in your horndrivers?

    These should be available new for aprox 120$ and should be some kind similar to the 2441 type of sound.
    That would remain the setup and crossover you have in general, but with fresh parts
    specifically which diaphragms are you referring to?

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpsmash View Post
    specifically which diaphragms are you referring to?
    D8R2450SL or D16R2451SL

    They are calling the 16 ohm version discontinued, not sure if that's official or not.

  15. #225
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    My 2 cents

    Honestly, if you're not satisfied with your current setup, it might be a design issue in general. Your System doesn't please you because the drivers aren't fine. They're quite quite good actually. So if you seek something else sound-wise, you may try a different Speaker Design with some of the key elements of your old design you liked. OR drastically rethink you design and the room, that surrounds it.
    I would probably go for route 2, but I like the Design itself a lot. I'm biased tho, since I listen to a three way with Fostex components, but same idea. 12 inch bass ported, horizontally wide dispersion horn and so does the tweeter. I love it, and I'll probably never go another way.
    I think you should try the route 1 and go for something like the M2, maybe with a super tweeter on top. It's the evolution of your old design and may be the right choice for you. You will still get plenty dynamic and detailed sound with smooth response and great micro dynamics. Thats just the Horn and big woofer style thing with quality drivers, the rest is about integration and how well the imaging is!

    Cheers

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