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Thread: Building my dream system, need lots of advise!

  1. #181
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    so far so good. A bit more tamed than having the 2216ND1 do all the work. unfortunately life have been really busy and I haven't have much time to do listening and tuning. Will definitely put up more thoughts later.

  2. #182
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Finally have a little bit of time to work on the speakers. Here is the horizontal dispersion measurement for the 2123H.

    Name:  20200301-2216ND1-dispersion.png
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  3. #183
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    and here is the one for the 2216ND1.
    Name:  20200301-2216ND1-dispersion2.png
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  4. #184
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    on the 2216ND1, how to decipher the narrowing dispersion and the dip between 150-300Hz? It comes back together and rapidly rising to 500-800Hz hump (which maybe what is bothering me), and then drops back down beyond 800Hz.

    The 2123H is relatively better behaved, but looks best near the upper-200 and up to 1.2kHz.

  5. #185
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    300Hz is a difficult frequency to deal with when measuring in a room, but with a combination of close mic measurement and spatial averaging around the listening position (eg MMM technique) it can be done.
    I would advise you to use the same baffle width for the 15" and 10", to avoid baffle step differences and get a more (spacialy) consistent response so that you could ultimately rely almost only on close mic measurements.

  6. #186
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    300Hz is a difficult frequency to deal with when measuring in a room, but with a combination of close mic measurement and spatial averaging around the listening position (eg MMM technique) it can be done.
    I would advise you to use the same baffle width for the 15" and 10", to avoid baffle step differences and get a more (spacialy) consistent response so that you could ultimately rely almost only on close mic measurements.
    good point about the baffle width/step. both the 2123H and 2216ND1 has the same baffle width, but that happens to fall around 250Hz. I am not sure if that's the issue though as the same drop don't happen in the 2123H graph. and then the 2216ND1 recovers ones it goes below 150Hz.

    so maybe the baffle step being at around the same frequency is just a coincidence?

    still don't understand what would cause it. could it be cabinet resonance of some sort?

  7. #187
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    A bit of update on my project. After gotten distracted a little bit playing with my DAC. I came back to my speakers. A couple of things I did.

    I flipped the bass cabinet sideways, this puts the 2397 closer to ear level, but don't look at nice as before and there is the mismatched baffle width. I also put back the 2405 instead of the Fostex.

    Crossover is 250Hz, 1.2kHz, 10kHz

    I have to say, now it sounds really good.

    After swapping in the 2123H, I am no longer getting that beamy fatiguing sound from mid/high. I think that might be an issue with the 2216ND1 around 1kHz area. I cannot confirm though as I have not heard another implemention (ie. 4367). The 2123H does contribute to the whole stack in a positive way in that regards.

    I didn't have a good solution to support the 2405 before so it was just resting on some wood pieces. I finally took the time to build a support for it.

    I have to say that 2405 really shines here. Wider dispersion (the Fostex was very very narrow), but more important, more airy and a LOT of detail. I can hear more texture from almost everything. I did have to add a lot more room treatment to achieve focus, I think that helps with the super wide 2397 also.

    I have been very much enjoying music since I arrived at this point. Now almost everything sounds good. It even revitalized those so-so orchestral recording.

    Won't win any beauty contest, unfortunately.


  8. #188
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello jmpsmash

    Those are very nice! I really like the 2123. I use it in my HT system mains. I like what the JBL 10's bring to the mix.

    I didn't know you had 2216nd-1's! What size box, tuned too??

    How do you like them??

    You have a 2440/41 on the smith horn??

    I am really curious to see how the 2216's sound compared to my E-145's. I really like the E-145's, great snap and clarity.

    If the 2216nd's are even better yahoooo!!!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  9. #189
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Hi Rob!

    it's a (net) 6.5cuft net cabinet tuned to 30Hz. I like it. There is no replacement for displacement afterall. But I haven't compared it with other 15", at least not recently so I don't know for sure. It would be great if I can get my hands on a pair of 2235 and A/B compare! Without comparison, sometimes I wonder if I can get more definition out of it? or maybe the cabinet is too small/large? There is no official T/S param published for the 2216ND1. My room is also cursed when it comes to bass. it is a 20x20 ft room so I get a huge suckout at around 45-50Hz. Which literally sucks coz I am missing a lot. But that's how it is, I am lucky to have a room for music / hifi already. But in any case, right now they do sound very good! I have a few simple pieces where I have tried in various systems and config and the 2216ND1 produces the most defined bass on them.

    yes, it is 2441 driving 2397 and the combination with the 2405 is really wonderful. Clarity, dynamics, presense, and with some work, I managed to get imaging out of them too (I have more than a dozen panels all over the room). Right now they are wired in parallel, using the natural drop off of the 2397 at 10kHz and I used a single cap on the 2405 to roll it off around that. For improvement I think I can do better with either another channel in my active crossover or build a proper passive.

  10. #190
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    That good real good.

    Have a look at the 3107 schematic for the 2405.

    I would follow the JBL 4367 on enclosure volume and tuning.

    They added some acquaplas to the cone to lower the resonance but it didn't change it that much.

    You could try measuring it with the DATS woofer tester of you want actual T/L parameters.

    Aim for a 28-30 hertz tuning.

    You might also try raising the woofer 4-6 inches off the floor.

  11. #191
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Ian, Thanks for the advise. I will look into the high pass. I have enough caps but will have to look for the air core inductor.

    Giving the woofer a bit more listening. What I think is that it has enough volume and headroom. It can go very loud without any sign of strain at all. certainly enough to make me go deaf in my 20x20 ft room. However, it is def not the best bass I have heard. The best bass is not just loud and low distortion, but instead, fast, relaxed, and effortless. As if it is just strolling in the park.

    I wonder if it is a issue with the enclosure? Or is it the amplification? I am using a Nuprime class D, 150wpc, 400 damping factor. I read a bit about Crown amps, do they have better control of the woofer? I see a Dci 2|300N for sale locally, 300wpc, >1000 damping factor. Will that be better?

    The absolute best bass I have heard, from 2x15" + 2x18" per channel, totally fast, effortless, give me ear to ear grin, is driven by Crown amps. Was it the incredible amount of air moved, or the amps? Or... both?

  12. #192
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Probably the woofer near the floor.

    Try raising it off the floor for process of elimination.

    You can generally tell with familiar program material if the tuning is out. It will either sound over damped or boom. If it’s sounds damped but blooms you need some PEQ below 150 hertz.

  13. #193
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    I guess the missing bass definition is caused by your square room.
    A square room is horrible when it comes to room modes, as two modes are exactly at the same frequency and add up!
    To be honest, it is very difficult/expensive to get it fixed with room acoustic treatments. If possible, move to another room.

  14. #194
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    I guess the missing bass definition is caused by your square room.
    A square room is horrible when it comes to room modes, as two modes are exactly at the same frequency and add up!
    To be honest, it is very difficult/expensive to get it fixed with room acoustic treatments. If possible, move to another room.
    I fully understand the physics and implications of the room dimensions. Unfortunately, with the real estate situation at my part of the world, I should be grateful to even have a room for hifi listening. I just have to deal with what I have.

    Quite literally -->

  15. #195
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    You might be able to moderate the problem with Minidsp EQ.

    I had a similar problem in an apartment living room 20 years ago that was 4 m square and solid brick and concrete slab. The bass tended to hum. I found turning down the bass below 50 hertz on one channel helped.

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