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Thread: Does charge coupling really work?

  1. #1
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    Does charge coupling really work?

    Yeah, the title says it all. I do respect JBL as a serious, reputable speaker manufacturing company, but biasing non-polarized foil capacitors by applying some DC voltage strictly resembles marketing BS for audiophools . How should it work? Did JBL perform DBT's to substantiate ? And what happens if the (negative) signal peak voltage exceeds the (positive) bias voltage ?

    Best regards!

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Try it in a simple 2 way design like an L20t3 or 4406 and decide for yourself.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...sed-Capacitors


    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    Yeah, the title says it all. I do respect JBL as a serious, reputable speaker manufacturing company, but biasing non-polarized foil capacitors by applying some DC voltage strictly resembles marketing BS for audiophools . How should it work? Did JBL perform DBT's to substantiate ? And what happens if the (negative) signal peak voltage exceeds the (positive) bias voltage ?

    Best regards!

    Soon as someone mentions double blind tests (and often times "bean counters") related to listening to music I quickly get disinterested in a dialog on the matter. Don't mean to make any judgments on your concern on whether charge coupling is effective. There is room for reasonable skepticism for certain, given the history of marketing in audio equipment. But do we really expect companies to double-blind test their products (or the many components therein) before placing them into the market?

    More to the point, yes charge-coupling is a real thing. It is not marketing BS. It can make a difference in sound. Guaranteed improvement for everyone? Nope.
    David F
    San Jose

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    Even Kenrich Sound stopped making coupled.
    I know! Some here will start screaming!

    Coupled is a scam!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Challenger604 View Post
    Even Kenrich Sound stopped making coupled.
    I know! Some here will start screaming!

    Coupled is a scam!!
    Kenrick will make you charge couple networks if you are willing to pay for it. Given they use the upper range of Jantzen's and Mundorfs the cost to make them would be insane, even by Kenrick's standards.

    The designer of the networks seems to think they are an improvement. Given your questionable posts in the past, your obvious biases and overall lack of knowledge your opinion is worthless.

    I am not even going to bother asking if you have heard a pair of biased networks. If you have I guarantee you went in with the preconceived notion that its all bullshit.

    To all other members/guests perusing the forum please disregard Challenger604's post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Try it in a simple 2 way design like an L20t3 or 4406 and decide for yourself.
    As Rob said. I've done it.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post395093
    I know there is a psycho bias, anyway, the improvement was clear to me and to a friend semi-pro musician (has a job but makes many records in many projects, live show...) who asked to buy them right away. What have I done...
    He now has them in is tiny lounge and his friends (local artists and producers) said they are really surprised for such old and small monitors.
    Later got some LSR305, the CCed 4406 and amp were way better that those hissing LSR305...
    This is my statement and people do what they want of it. I've charge-coupled my 4313B also, again maybe in my head, and also in the head of a 4430 owner with the same amp as mine, they just sound better now.
    Mind that I've done it on quality but industrial MKP capacitors, maybe top quality audio caps don't benefit the same of the DC bias and maybe, again, some DC bias on cheap cap = raw high quality caps in a way...

    ...experience is a candle that only illuminates the wearer...

    On a tech side it works, everything is an RLC circuit, even a wire. (yes some fried amps with speakers cables: too much plastic layers like multi-conductors and you end up with some capacitance).
    No debate on the fact it does something but I'm OK on the fact it's measurable or not on something else that lab equipments. Magnetostriction and electrostriction stories I guess... but I don't care, I've seen for myself and I enjoy my music even more now =)

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    By googling "electrolytic capacitor distorsion" I found this page: http://www.renardson-audio.com/capdist.html

    I didn't have the patience for reading all of it, but fund this sentence interesting: "Adding a dc bias increases the 2nd harmonic, as expected for any device with a primarily cubic non-linearity."

    People who like single ended tube amps would like biased electrolytic capacitors since they add harmonic distorsion.

    Mårten

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    I wasn't talking about electrolytics, but of modern plastic film capacitors. Anyway, electrolytics are probably the only capacitors that would benefit from biasing at all. I can imagine that two electrolytis back-to-back in series do benefit from a DC voltage that is applied with the correct polarity into the common joint, but this voltage needs to be higher than any expected signal peak voltage. Hence a construction like this one may outperform non polar electrolytics (which internally aren't nothing else than two ordinary electrolytics back-to-back, but without DC bias, of course).

    Best regards!

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Kay

    I wasn't talking about electrolytics, but of modern plastic film capacitors.
    Well here is what GT thinks on that point.

    I have never heard a capacitor type that didn't improve (or change) including the nearly perfect teflon variety.
    So I would try it before just blowing it off based on any pretense of superior capacitor quality. Some of the JBL CC networks use film caps in the midrange and highs. You might like what it does or not. Either way you would know for sure from a personal perspective.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    "...but this voltage needs to be higher than any expected signal peak voltage."

    I challenge this repeated assumption. I suggest the bias voltage only needs to be sufficient to mitigate low level distortions, where they are likely to be audible... something like a class A/B amp
    which does not require to be biased completely into 100% class A operation in order for there to be benefit. One may certainly debate at what point further bias voltage increase brings diminishing returns for a particular speaker system. I expect there are opinions throughout the possible range of values.

    Have fun. Don't hurt yourself.

  11. #11
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I challenge this repeated assumption. I suggest the bias voltage only needs to be sufficient to mitigate low level distortions, where they are likely to be audible... something like a class A/B amp which does not require to be biased completely into 100% class A operation in order for there to be benefit.
    Hello Grumpy

    I tend to agree. If you look at it as AC vs DC the AC is high passed through the caps while the DC is blocked. Capacitors will discharge the DC through a ground at a rate of C X R = T. I don't see the capacitors ever discharging completely.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    I'm Confused!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    I wasn't talking about electrolytics, but of modern plastic film capacitors. Anyway, electrolytics are probably the only capacitors that would benefit from biasing at all.Best regards!
    I thought "biasing" was the 'Adding in parallel a 0.01uF film capacitor to another capacitor in a crossover network'.

    So, isn't "charge coupling" different to "biasing"?

    I just see the two words being interchanged and get all confused..

    DogBox

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    Quote Originally Posted by DogBox View Post
    I thought "biasing" was the 'Adding in parallel a 0.01uF film capacitor to another capacitor in a crossover network'.

    So, isn't "charge coupling" different to "biasing"?

    I just see the two words being interchanged and get all confused..

    DogBox
    Charge coupling = biasing

    Adding a smaller capacitor is a completely different thing. It is done in power supplies to filter high frequency jitter.

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogBox View Post
    I thought "biasing" was the 'Adding in parallel a 0.01uF film capacitor to another capacitor in a crossover network'.

    So, isn't "charge coupling" different to "biasing"?

    I just see the two words being interchanged and get all confused..

    DogBox
    Adding a cap in parallel will "bypass" with a higher quality, small value, capacitor.

    Using two caps in series to provide a charge point is coupling the capacitors. Inserting the voltage at the charge point is biasing.
    David F
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    I had a pair made for 250 TI. I thought afterwards i wasted my money. Forward a few years later. I had a few friends over for a listening party and play w/my speakers in my new to me house. One of the things i did while moving listening etc was replace the battery in one of the speakers. 1 of the my friends both looked up startled and made wide eyed contact because what we heard was a marked improvement in sound quality , added warmth and smoothness. I am not sure everyone heard the difference though

    i had ignored the batteries alone for years thinking they weren't doing anything they had gone dead ...I WAS WRONG!
    Think center channel for 250TIs; (2) 108s, a 104 and a 44ti, now what?

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