Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 74

Thread: Does charge coupling really work?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    449

    Does charge coupling really work?

    Yeah, the title says it all. I do respect JBL as a serious, reputable speaker manufacturing company, but biasing non-polarized foil capacitors by applying some DC voltage strictly resembles marketing BS for audiophools . How should it work? Did JBL perform DBT's to substantiate ? And what happens if the (negative) signal peak voltage exceeds the (positive) bias voltage ?

    Best regards!

  2. #2
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rocinante
    Posts
    8,170
    Try it in a simple 2 way design like an L20t3 or 4406 and decide for yourself.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...sed-Capacitors


    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Tours, France
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Try it in a simple 2 way design like an L20t3 or 4406 and decide for yourself.
    As Rob said. I've done it.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post395093
    I know there is a psycho bias, anyway, the improvement was clear to me and to a friend semi-pro musician (has a job but makes many records in many projects, live show...) who asked to buy them right away. What have I done...
    He now has them in is tiny lounge and his friends (local artists and producers) said they are really surprised for such old and small monitors.
    Later got some LSR305, the CCed 4406 and amp were way better that those hissing LSR305...
    This is my statement and people do what they want of it. I've charge-coupled my 4313B also, again maybe in my head, and also in the head of a 4430 owner with the same amp as mine, they just sound better now.
    Mind that I've done it on quality but industrial MKP capacitors, maybe top quality audio caps don't benefit the same of the DC bias and maybe, again, some DC bias on cheap cap = raw high quality caps in a way...

    ...experience is a candle that only illuminates the wearer...

    On a tech side it works, everything is an RLC circuit, even a wire. (yes some fried amps with speakers cables: too much plastic layers like multi-conductors and you end up with some capacitance).
    No debate on the fact it does something but I'm OK on the fact it's measurable or not on something else that lab equipments. Magnetostriction and electrostriction stories I guess... but I don't care, I've seen for myself and I enjoy my music even more now =)

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Jättendal (Giant Valley), Sweden
    Posts
    763
    By googling "electrolytic capacitor distorsion" I found this page: http://www.renardson-audio.com/capdist.html

    I didn't have the patience for reading all of it, but fund this sentence interesting: "Adding a dc bias increases the 2nd harmonic, as expected for any device with a primarily cubic non-linearity."

    People who like single ended tube amps would like biased electrolytic capacitors since they add harmonic distorsion.

    Mårten

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    449
    I wasn't talking about electrolytics, but of modern plastic film capacitors. Anyway, electrolytics are probably the only capacitors that would benefit from biasing at all. I can imagine that two electrolytis back-to-back in series do benefit from a DC voltage that is applied with the correct polarity into the common joint, but this voltage needs to be higher than any expected signal peak voltage. Hence a construction like this one may outperform non polar electrolytics (which internally aren't nothing else than two ordinary electrolytics back-to-back, but without DC bias, of course).

    Best regards!

  6. #6
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rocinante
    Posts
    8,170
    Hello Kay

    I wasn't talking about electrolytics, but of modern plastic film capacitors.
    Well here is what GT thinks on that point.

    I have never heard a capacitor type that didn't improve (or change) including the nearly perfect teflon variety.
    So I would try it before just blowing it off based on any pretense of superior capacitor quality. Some of the JBL CC networks use film caps in the midrange and highs. You might like what it does or not. Either way you would know for sure from a personal perspective.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  7. #7
    Senior Member DogBox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NSW, Australia
    Posts
    191

    I'm Confused!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    I wasn't talking about electrolytics, but of modern plastic film capacitors. Anyway, electrolytics are probably the only capacitors that would benefit from biasing at all.Best regards!
    I thought "biasing" was the 'Adding in parallel a 0.01uF film capacitor to another capacitor in a crossover network'.

    So, isn't "charge coupling" different to "biasing"?

    I just see the two words being interchanged and get all confused..

    DogBox

  8. #8
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Sonoma County CA
    Posts
    946
    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
    Yeah, the title says it all. I do respect JBL as a serious, reputable speaker manufacturing company, but biasing non-polarized foil capacitors by applying some DC voltage strictly resembles marketing BS for audiophools . How should it work? Did JBL perform DBT's to substantiate ? And what happens if the (negative) signal peak voltage exceeds the (positive) bias voltage ?

    Best regards!

    Soon as someone mentions double blind tests (and often times "bean counters") related to listening to music I quickly get disinterested in a dialog on the matter. Don't mean to make any judgments on your concern on whether charge coupling is effective. There is room for reasonable skepticism for certain, given the history of marketing in audio equipment. But do we really expect companies to double-blind test their products (or the many components therein) before placing them into the market?

    More to the point, yes charge-coupling is a real thing. It is not marketing BS. It can make a difference in sound. Guaranteed improvement for everyone? Nope.
    David F
    San Jose

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Ca
    Posts
    493
    Even Kenrich Sound stopped making coupled.
    I know! Some here will start screaming!

    Coupled is a scam!!

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by Challenger604 View Post
    Even Kenrich Sound stopped making coupled.
    I know! Some here will start screaming!

    Coupled is a scam!!
    Kenrick will make you charge couple networks if you are willing to pay for it. Given they use the upper range of Jantzen's and Mundorfs the cost to make them would be insane, even by Kenrick's standards.

    The designer of the networks seems to think they are an improvement. Given your questionable posts in the past, your obvious biases and overall lack of knowledge your opinion is worthless.

    I am not even going to bother asking if you have heard a pair of biased networks. If you have I guarantee you went in with the preconceived notion that its all bullshit.

    To all other members/guests perusing the forum please disregard Challenger604's post.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Ca
    Posts
    493
    Quote Originally Posted by kelossus View Post
    Kenrick will make you charge couple networks if you are willing to pay for it. Given they use the upper range of Jantzen's and Mundorfs the cost to make them would be insane, even by Kenrick's standards.

    The designer of the networks seems to think they are an improvement. Given your questionable posts in the past, your obvious biases and overall lack of knowledge your opinion is worthless.

    I am not even going to bother asking if you have heard a pair of biased networks. If you have I guarantee you went in with the preconceived notion that its all bullshit.

    To all other members/guests perusing the forum please disregard Challenger604's post.

    Obviously laughable comment... at least you don’t scream!! ... Yes! I heard both 4355’s. Mine, non coupled and a friend’s pair. The coupled sounds very bad...

  12. #12
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    9,719
    Quote Originally Posted by Challenger604 View Post
    The coupled sounds very bad...
    It would seem then, that the charge coupled pair were poorly executed. At a minimum there should be no difference in sound.


    Widget

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,941
    Quote Originally Posted by Challenger604 View Post
    Obviously laughable comment... at least you don’t scream!! ... Yes! I heard both 4355’s. Mine, non coupled and a friend’s pair. The coupled sounds very bad...

    Okay.

    What active crossover are you using?

    If it’s an old Jbl 5234, 5235 or any of the other pro pa active crossovers it’s not surprising.

    On the other hand are they equipped with old” compression driver diaphragms.

    There are too many variables to cast a judgement like a line in the sand.

    Without fully understanding the whole system it’s difficult to express one view over another.

    That is why people are now spending more time watching YouTube, webinars and then trying it for themselves.

    It’s not surprising the hifi industry refers to people with opinions on forums as keyboard warriors.

    The odd of taking away some facts are remote.

    If Greg Timbers says it works then that is fact.

    Everything else is noise.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Ca
    Posts
    493
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Okay.

    What active crossover are you using?

    If it’s an old Jbl 5234, 5235 or any of the other pro pa active crossovers it’s not surprising.

    On the other hand are they equipped with old” compression driver diaphragms.

    There are too many variables to cast a judgement like a line in the sand.

    Without fully understanding the whole system it’s difficult to express one view over another.

    That is why people are now spending more time watching YouTube, webinars and then trying it for themselves.

    It’s not surprising the hifi industry refers to people with opinions on forums as keyboard warriors.

    The odd of taking away some facts are remote.

    If Greg Timbers says it works then that is fact.

    Everything else is noise.
    Both, mine and his are with 5234A with the right cards, all original alu compressions with everything the same with drivers.

    Even the same amplifiers as both are big fans of SAE.

    Big difference between the two...

    With all due respect for Timbers and nothing against him but I trust my hearing.

    BTW, he must know how many pairs of 4355’s have been built! Subject of another topic!

    It is amazing how not having the same opinion, in this forum, produce vile reactions similar to antifa! Very annoying...

  15. #15
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    9,719
    Quote Originally Posted by Challenger604 View Post
    Obviously laughable comment... at least you don’t scream!! ... Yes! I heard both 4355’s. Mine, non coupled and a friend’s pair. The coupled sounds very bad...
    For one pair of 4355s to sound presumably good and another to sound "very bad", there must be something else going on. Different rooms, different equipment in front of the speakers, etc.

    I don't know the "test" conditions of your comparison, but in my experience, after speakers, the room is the next largest variable in sound quality.

    FWIW: I am not blindly defending CC networks. For my own DIY speaker projects, I have opted to go with higher quality caps and keeping them simple, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, anecdotally it did appear to me that the factory CC network in my DD66000s did have a positive influence.


    Widget

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Charge Coupling on the Cheap
    By Ian Mackenzie in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 201
    Last Post: 12-19-2022, 05:17 AM
  2. Charge coupling cap asymmetry
    By honkytonkwillie in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-22-2016, 05:11 PM
  3. Charge Coupling vs non CC with boutique caps
    By martin2395 in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-10-2015, 10:56 AM
  4. Charge Coupling on the Cheap
    By Ian Mackenzie in forum Lansing Product General Information
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 12-15-2005, 08:02 AM
  5. Biasing, Charge coupling
    By Guido in forum Lansing Product General Information
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-07-2005, 10:54 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •