Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 567
Results 91 to 104 of 104

Thread: Please help with 128H's in L150A's. :)

  1. #91
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rocinante
    Posts
    7,975
    JMHO but what I'm seeing in some of these videos is blatant abuse. You should never run drivers that hard especially vintage ones where parts are scarce or unobtanium. Get a sub if you want to run drivers that hard at least they are designed for it.


    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  2. #92
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    Xmax for 128H is only 1/3" ... 2" is right out.

    I would guess 1) simply expecting too much and over driving the system or 2) the box tuning (passive radiator in this case... seems there was a question there about the proper number of discs) is off quite a bit and not controlling the woofer motion at resonance... if the PRs are OK (compliance and weight) it may mean the woofers are not performing to spec. In any case, running them at more than 1/2" in 1/2" out is not recommended and noises/damage may well be expected. I would expect the PR/128H/box to be set up for minimum woofer motion (maximum PR motion) between 20-30Hz.

    I ran a 300w/ch Perreaux high-current amp with the pair I have, and experienced no such excessive excursion or noises, but my listening preferences and environment could well be different. I doubt I ever hit 100w on peaks (cannon shots excepted)
    Well maybe it was closer to 1", not sure, just eye balling it. I'd post a video but I don't use any video linking sites and don't feel like making another account somewhere I'll only use once. Maybe this weekend though. I put four discs back on each PR300 as they are supposed to have. Short of buying a smoke machine I can't feel any other leaks. I sealed the cabinets the best I could. I don't think I'm listening that loud, SPL meter will confirm it and then I'll report back so you guys can tell me whats going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    JMHO but what I'm seeing in some of these videos is blatant abuse. You should never run drivers that hard especially vintage ones where parts are scarce or unobtanium. Get a sub if you want to run drivers that hard at least they are designed for it.

    Rob
    LoL if that's the case all this stuff is for sale. I don't listen to the electronic stuff Chris Brown does, I'm a classic rock guy. Grass roots type stuff. If it was all synthetically prepared I really don't want to listen to it.

    But this stuff jammed yesterday so why can't it jam today?

    Mac,
    If I can find an empty set of decent L220 cabinets, I will go to work making something home brew. I would keep the passive radiator though.

  3. #93
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    near Glasgow Scotland
    Posts
    1,989
    Three points +

    220 & 222 are physically BIG boxes. That's why I came up with the chop option.
    Uses a rear firing port although it could go on the front valance.

    JBL pretty much dumped PR after this series. Ponder as to why.

    You wouldn't be using your loudness button ? If so your amp is going beyond its ability to supply current and the damping factor is insufficient to keep the 128 under control.

    The chop option offers quite a few good avenues as to driver load. Me I'd be looking at LE14H-1 , a horn mid and a slot tweet 077/2405/ For practical purposes you are in L300 territory. Now that is a long way up the totem pole from the L150.

  4. #94
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    annapolis, md usa
    Posts
    425
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    ......But this stuff jammed yesterday so why can't it jam today?......
    Same reason people can't do things at 70 they can do at 20. Things become more fragile, require more care and less abuse.

    Now that I see what you're doing, a couple of those Utlimax subwoofers like in the video would be in order. A pair of the 18" with your JBLs high passed would let you hit it as hard as you like. The vintage subs like the B380/BX63A combo probably wouldn't keep up.

    Are you using a digital source, or analogue (vinyl)? If you've got a mismatch between cartridge and phono preamp, I've seen huge woofer excursion at high volume.

  5. #95
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    9,937
    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    JMHO but what I'm seeing in some of these videos is blatant abuse. You should never run drivers that hard especially vintage ones where parts are scarce or unobtanium.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    You wouldn't be using your loudness button ?


    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Are you using a digital source, or analogue (vinyl)? If you've got a mismatch between cartridge and phono preamp, I've seen huge woofer excursion at high volume.
    +1

    Also, a record with a bit of warp turned up high on a system without mega isolation will create infrasonic feedback. Massive cone movement with little acoustic output, but potentially woofer destroying and amp power wasting.


    Widget

  6. #96
    Senior Member brutal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Well, I haven't had good experiences with the handful of Yamaha stuff I've tried. I suppose I'm open to trashing my original concept of building a better late 70's early '80's setup than my dad had in favor of better gear. But I do like the Marantz sound. It's warm and slightly relaxed. I can leave the EQ settings flat and just attenuate the pots on the L150A's instead. What other amp & preamp combos will match that sound or best it for roughly $2,500? 'Cause that's about what I've got into that stuff you see in the pics.

    Although to play devil's advocate, did you see some of my earlier posts where I put that Yammie head to head against the Marantz stuff I've got? In short, both caused the left woofer to produce that popping noise. Lastly, the Marantz edged out the Yamaha in sound quality and overall loudness & distortion free listening. And that was while "wounded" as I put it. The Yammie started to audibly distort before it produced the popping noise while the Marantz was tickling the "peak" lights a bit more often than usual. The popping happened as the "peak" lights were NOT lit, for what that's worth.

    I still think I've got a bum 128H or a bad job on the recone. This weekend was a busy one. Sunday I got around to downloading AudioTool (which is awesome, I like it. Thanks Earl!) Also thanks to Mac for sending me a link but since I don't use my home computer much and Windows 10 likes to update every time I do (which takes hours..) I broke down and forked over cash for AudioTool as I didn't want to wait. I used a 20hz test tone to get the woofers moving a pretty good deal. I used the Yammie as the Marantz stuff is under the knife. No popping noise when using the tone but I did notice the PR300's were fluttering like a humming bird's wings. Could feel a bit of air leaking from the fasteners on the left side. The PR's also made a bit of noise themselves, like a faint rattle. Decided to pull the woofers and PR's out to clean up the o-rings & mating surfaces and verify the PR's had equal weight on each. Good thing I did that, the right side had five discs and the left side had three. I didn't see anyone else do this but I decided to put silicone on the o-ring mating surface for each woofer and on the threads of the fasteners to better seal the cabinets and to make removal easier. Never thought I'd be in and out of a speaker assy this often. End result is that the same test tone didn't produce as much movement from the woofers as I saw before so perhaps the cabinets are sealing better. At this point I think I'd need a smoke machine to find any other leaks, certainly didn't feel any. I also put silicone around the mids and their fasteners. Buut the left side still pops when driven. I tried rotating the left woofer 90 degrees and no difference. Popping isn't as loud as it was before recone but still sounds like the voice coil is rubbing, just not as bad. Only makes the noise when the woofer comes out into the room, not into the cabinet.
    I wouldn't exactly call a 10 year old low end $50 thrift store Yamaha HT receiver indicative of Yamaha Hi-Fi quality. It's not even a fair fight to pit a vintage kit against that "thing" and I sure wouldn't drive a nice pair of vintage JBL's with it. Don't get me wrong, I've run modern Yamaha HT receivers for ages but always with outboard (vintage Hi-Fi and/or Pro) amplifiers.


  7. #97
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rocinante
    Posts
    7,975
    LoL if that's the case all this stuff is for sale. I don't listen to the electronic stuff Chris Brown does, I'm a classic rock guy. Grass roots type stuff. If it was all synthetically prepared I really don't want to listen to it.

    What you may not realize is that system came out 3 years before the first CD player in 1982. So 1979 40 years ago. There is a big difference between the low end on a typical Vinyl record which was rolled off compressed and frequency limited compared to a modern CD where this is simply not an issue. These systems were tuned for the media available at the time. Passive Radiators are essentially reflex boxes and if you put any serious power into them below the box tuning it can unload and you can get unpredictable and excessive cone excursions.

    Remember when the original Half speed masters came out?? Many had a caution on them for playback level for both a mistracking stylus and what was then extreme bass response as far as level and frequency. It would do well to remember just how old these systems are and how much the media has changed.


    When you think about it they really did do a great job on some of these older systems it's amazing how well some of them have held up and how good they still sound on modern media.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  8. #98
    Senior Member Chris Brown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    How do you like your L100T3's? Have you ever listened to 240Ti's? What would your opinion be of the two of them?
    I've heard the 240Ti's before, but never side by side with my L100T's and not since I had my L100T crossovers upgraded to t3 spec. I would probably give the edge to the 240Ti. I liked the highs on the 240Ti better, but I also like the highs on my L100Ts a lot better since having the crossovers upgraded. Wish I had a chance to compare them today. I felt like the woofer in the 240Ti maybe had a bit more grunt to it, but the 2214H in the L100T really wasn't far behind, with itself having twice the power handling of the 128H in the L150. I like the L100Ts a lot but they are overall somewhat overshadowed by the L150s in my system which are still my favorite despite being technically inferior to the L100Ts in certain respects.


    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But this stuff jammed yesterday so why can't it jam today?
    Different people are going to have different opinions on how hard things should be pushed. I've had my L150s for almost 2 decades now and I run them hard with bass heavy content almost every single day (though not always to the extent seen in the videos). When you run the same speakers for a long time you get to the point where you have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. I see no reason to baby them just because of their age. Of course there is still a big difference between pushing something close to it's limits and crossing those limits, with understanding their limits being the first step. I regularly remove the woofers from their cabinets and carefully inspect for any warnings signs or needed maintenance. Based on my observations and personal experiences with these speakers over so many years, I have no reason to believe that they won't last another several decades or more. They might not last forever, but neither will I. Might as well enjoy myself while I have the chance.

  9. #99
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    Three points +

    220 & 222 are physically BIG boxes. That's why I came up with the chop option.
    Uses a rear firing port although it could go on the front valance.

    JBL pretty much dumped PR after this series. Ponder as to why.

    You wouldn't be using your loudness button ? If so your amp is going beyond its ability to supply current and the damping factor is insufficient to keep the 128 under control.

    The chop option offers quite a few good avenues as to driver load. Me I'd be looking at LE14H-1 , a horn mid and a slot tweet 077/2405/ For practical purposes you are in L300 territory. Now that is a long way up the totem pole from the L150.
    I'd need to do further research but from what I saw the L220 has a 14" woofer and so does the 240Ti, I'm not sure but I'm hoping in terms of volume that the 14" in a 240Ti will work just dandy in the cabinet of an L220. Don't know if it's a direct swap in terms of fasteners though, appears to be.

    Just a sign of the times perhaps, doesn't mean that a PR is inferior. Just like they for the most part, have dumped pushrods and single camshafts in engines. Still damn fine tech and in my experience it is far more dependable and reliable than what replaced it. It's just not as efficient so it got cannibalized, just the way of consumerism really. Like look at how many modern speakers seem to employ that dual woofer design like the E90's I've got. Trends..

    The Yammie doesn't have a loudness button, instead, it has a bass extension button. Whatever that is. I do use that at lower levels but turn it off when driving the system. But with the tone controls flat, the Yammie sounds awful. Obviously, with the tone settings active I can't and don't run the amp as hard. It's easy to tell when that thing is running out of steam. The Marantz does have a loudness button and I do like it. From what I've read, it is only active at lower volumes and then turns itself down & off as you increase the volume. I've experimented with that and confirmed it, so I leave it on. I leave the tone control on the preamp flat, except for midrange where I have it taken down a smidge.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Same reason people can't do things at 70 they can do at 20. Things become more fragile, require more care and less abuse.

    Now that I see what you're doing, a couple of those Utlimax subwoofers like in the video would be in order. A pair of the 18" with your JBLs high passed would let you hit it as hard as you like. The vintage subs like the B380/BX63A combo probably wouldn't keep up.

    Are you using a digital source, or analogue (vinyl)? If you've got a mismatch between cartridge and phono preamp, I've seen huge woofer excursion at high volume.
    I'm not sure I believe that just yet. Humans and electronics aren't the same, by that logic it would be like saying that I can't drive my 1989 K1500 as hard because it's 30 years old. I drive it daily, it burns no oil and I even beat on it. It's a lot of fun off road and in the winter time when snow falls. I replace what wears out as it does and it just keeps on running. Actually, it was in the shop far less than my 2011 Colorado was and I bought that new. Sold it after three years in favor of running "old junk" as my peers call it. Let them waste money, it's what makes the world go 'round.
    If that is true, then I wasted money having the woofers reconed. I figured by doing that, I replaced what wears out, as I read about the suspensions getting old & tired on vintage speakers. But what Robh said makes sense; these were made before the release of CD's and digital recording methods. When I started reading about 240Ti's I saw sales propaganda about the 240Ti in which JBL boasted that many of their products were already "digital ready" and I'm assuming that is what they were talking about. So that seems to be what the issue is here.

    I am using a digital source in addition to a turntable, which I haven't brought upstairs yet. But I'm not listening to synthesized stuff like shown in the videos. However, much of what I've got is now digital and has been remastered, like my entire Beatles, Queen and Led Zeppelin catalog. I really don't want to go the subwoofer route, as it's a hodgepodge of crap- vintage amps, speakers and then shiny new subwoofers. I think what I'll end up doing is trying to find an older equalizer, cutting off the lows starting at 40 or 50hz and then worst case scenario, move the L150A's downstairs in favor of 240Ti's. Down there I already have subwoofers and the Marantz SR7005 has LPF's I already employ with the E90's that will also be employed with the L150A's should I go that route. I also biamp the E90's so I might look into biamping the L150A's as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by brutal View Post
    I wouldn't exactly call a 10 year old low end $50 thrift store Yamaha HT receiver indicative of Yamaha Hi-Fi quality. It's not even a fair fight to pit a vintage kit against that "thing" and I sure wouldn't drive a nice pair of vintage JBL's with it. Don't get me wrong, I've run modern Yamaha HT receivers for ages but always with outboard (vintage Hi-Fi and/or Pro) amplifiers.
    It was a $900 receiver when new in 1998. HT? This is an R-V series: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_li.../r-v1105.shtml
    All of the home theater receivers are worth essentially nothing after ten years or so, short of the THX certified ones. My guess is that's just because nothing stands out about them. But this wasn't thrift store trash in it's day. It is now (to me) and had it not been part of the package deal with the L150A's when I bought them, I wouldn't have bought it myself. Short of the face off, I do not drive my L150A's hard with it, I just use it as a scab for the Marantz 510M while it is being repaired. Originally, I was going to use it to drive my garage speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    What you may not realize is that system came out 3 years before the first CD player in 1982. So 1979 40 years ago. There is a big difference between the low end on a typical Vinyl record which was rolled off compressed and frequency limited compared to a modern CD where this is simply not an issue. These systems were tuned for the media available at the time. Passive Radiators are essentially reflex boxes and if you put any serious power into them below the box tuning it can unload and you can get unpredictable and excessive cone excursions.

    Remember when the original Half speed masters came out?? Many had a caution on them for playback level for both a mistracking stylus and what was then extreme bass response as far as level and frequency. It would do well to remember just how old these systems are and how much the media has changed.

    When you think about it they really did do a great job on some of these older systems it's amazing how well some of them have held up and how good they still sound on modern media.

    Rob
    I did start to read about stuff along those lines, digital vs analog techniques and such. JBL even made mention of it as I said in response to another member's comment. So that I can believe. In the end, it looks like I may have to try and sell these. If I can't break even, then they'll replace the E90's I have. Next up to try will be 240Ti's and then some older subwoofers hidden in a corner, much like my shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
    I've heard the 240Ti's before, but never side by side with my L100T's and not since I had my L100T crossovers upgraded to t3 spec. I would probably give the edge to the 240Ti. I liked the highs on the 240Ti better, but I also like the highs on my L100Ts a lot better since having the crossovers upgraded. Wish I had a chance to compare them today. I felt like the woofer in the 240Ti maybe had a bit more grunt to it, but the 2214H in the L100T really wasn't far behind, with itself having twice the power handling of the 128H in the L150. I like the L100Ts a lot but they are overall somewhat overshadowed by the L150s in my system which are still my favorite despite being technically inferior to the L100Ts in certain respects.


    Different people are going to have different opinions on how hard things should be pushed. I've had my L150s for almost 2 decades now and I run them hard with bass heavy content almost every single day (though not always to the extent seen in the videos). When you run the same speakers for a long time you get to the point where you have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. I see no reason to baby them just because of their age. Of course there is still a big difference between pushing something close to it's limits and crossing those limits, with understanding their limits being the first step. I regularly remove the woofers from their cabinets and carefully inspect for any warnings signs or needed maintenance. Based on my observations and personal experiences with these speakers over so many years, I have no reason to believe that they won't last another several decades or more. They might not last forever, but neither will I. Might as well enjoy myself while I have the chance.
    Seeing as L100T3's go for about as much as 240Ti's do, I think I'll try and find 240's based on your opinion and several others I've read. I also like that I can attenuate the mids & highs via the built in resistors in the X/O network of the 240's, 100T3's have no such provision.. Seems a lot of people prefer the highs and mids of a 240 to the T3's. Which is also why I wanted to try and replace the mids & tweeters of my L150A's with the stuff from a 240Ti as they look to be drop in replacements. But, the mids and highs of my 150's are enjoyable to me, the issue is the bottom end.

    Well, that's how I feel about these things. But maybe due to when they were made (before the digital era) they might not be right for me.

    Thanks for all the replies fellas!

  10. #100
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    near Glasgow Scotland
    Posts
    1,989
    Derek , run that sweep I sent you and watch what happens with the PR v the driver.
    Do it at mid volume.

  11. #101
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    Derek , run that sweep I sent you and watch what happens with the PR v the driver.
    Do it at mid volume.
    This weekend was a productive one; I swapped axles in the wife's truck and then dealt with my computer to retrieve that sweep file.

    I ran it initially at 50% like you suggested and then up to about 80% "throttle" on the Yamaha, no ill effects and very similar results like I experienced with AudioTool. I like that a bit more for leak checking and to check pop. Although for fear of burning out my woofer's voice coils I didn't run either of those hard enough to produce pop. I'll run it some more today but didn't notice the PR's moving all that much. So I pulled the 128Hs again and swapped cabinets. I also checked each by moving them in and out by hand. The woofer which makes the popping noise rubs at the last 1/4" of outward travel. The other woofer is just fine by comparison. So I suspect either the pole piece is out of alignment or the recone job on it was trash. It's better than it used to be, but the rub is still there.

    Marantz stuff still out of commission. That must be F'd up pretty good.

    If someone can link a video which shows how the PR300's should be moving in relation to the 128Hs' action, that would be incredibly useful to me.

  12. #102
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,672
    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    This weekend was a productive one; I swapped axles in the wife's truck and then dealt with my computer to retrieve that sweep file.

    I ran it initially at 50% like you suggested and then up to about 80% "throttle" on the Yamaha, no ill effects and very similar results like I experienced with AudioTool. I like that a bit more for leak checking and to check pop. Although for fear of burning out my woofer's voice coils I didn't run either of those hard enough to produce pop. I'll run it some more today but didn't notice the PR's moving all that much. So I pulled the 128Hs again and swapped cabinets. I also checked each by moving them in and out by hand. The woofer which makes the popping noise rubs at the last 1/4" of outward travel. The other woofer is just fine by comparison. So I suspect either the pole piece is out of alignment or the recone job on it was trash. It's better than it used to be, but the rub is still there.

    Marantz stuff still out of commission. That must be F'd up pretty good.

    If someone can link a video which shows how the PR300's should be moving in relation to the 128Hs' action, that would be incredibly useful to me.
    The passive radiator works on the same principal as a bass reflex vent. At the mass-weighted tuning resonance of the PR300, the excursion...movement...of the 128H will be not discernable, as the PR300 is making bass at this frequency. A sweep test will help you determine what the actual resonant frequency the the PR is weighted for.

    It also would not surprise me if your speaker is reconed with aftermarket parts devoid of aquaplas, that it's never going to sound like it should. The moving mass and dampening of the cone is what makes the 128H a 128H. Otherwise, it's just a bad recone of a 12" woofer. Could be the voice coil is not in it's correct static position in the gap. I see this crap all the time. It's also highly unlikely the pole piece is out of alignment unless the gap was shifted from a broken bond of the top plate or back plate and not realigned properly.


    https://www.facebook.com/UplandLouds...7412589819370/

    https://www.facebook.com/UplandLouds...3768207742105/
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  13. #103
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    61
    The PR300 seems to flutter like a humming bird's wings at 35hz, does that mean that is the frequency they're tuned for? Each PR has four weight discs on it. I've heard adding more will lower the frequency and subtracting them will increase the frequency. I'm a laymen so factory settings for me, although to be honest, I wouldn't mind a bump in the 60-90hz region.

    If you have the time, please read through the thread. The speakers were reconed with 129H-1 kits IIRC, they did not have AquaPlas on them and despite me communicating back and forth with my reconer (who does show up on Harmon's website as an authorized technician) that they are available, she insisted they are not. Now that I've done my homework after the exam, I see she does not have the equipment at her disposal like you and sguttag do. A bummer for sure, as now I have more sad news to report and are hoping either you or sguttag could help me out here.. Long story short is that I'm looking to have both woofers reconed/repaired correctly with actual JBL parts by someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to help me. Should have done this from the start. Hindsight is always 20/20.. But I'm on a budget, I've got too much money wrapped up into all of this already. So if none of you fine folks feel like helping me, would 2213 or 123A woofers work in place of my 128H's? I don't know what you guys would want to repair my original woofers. I've got ~$400 slotted to do this and the reason I bring up the other woofers is because I can snag a pair of them for about ~$300 not including shipping. Please advise.

    Long Story:Here's the bummer: I got my Marantz stuff back yesterday. Amp tested at 305 WPC before distortion at 8 ohms. Pretty impressive. They definitely screwed something up before because my complaints were resolved and yet they acted like nothing was wrong, "All channels came up evenly like they should but we cleaned a few things and made a couple tweaks." Uh huh, and that took 3.5 weeks? I was polite of course, never called & pestered them and was happy to pick up the amp after they called me. Mistakes happen, we're human.

    Well, I hooked everything up, set my gain and such & ran the test tones & sweep. Some noise was present on the suspect woofer, but nothing like before. Listened for a good twenty minutes at lower levels (60dB or less) before moving to my Cars playlist. Dangerous Type came on, had to jam & see what would happen. Amp was definitely wounded before as now it was playing louder and with less effort. I was ready to call victory! I had achieved what I wanted, loud listening level with a little more oomph left for those guitar interludes as I wanted. Bum woofer said NOPE! It just died without incident. No rubbing or pop sounds, just silence.

  14. #104
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    near Glasgow Scotland
    Posts
    1,989
    Yikes Derek , you're not having much luck. Edgewound is yer man for reconing BTW.

    M

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New owner of old L150A's here! Help please.
    By evans224 in forum Lansing Product General Information
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-19-2005, 11:44 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •