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Thread: Please help with 128H's in L150A's. :)

  1. #76
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But if you guys feel $600 is fair for those even though the mids aren't original then let me know.
    To buck the trend: IF you wanted to add up the cost of drivers, then @600, is OK.

    Real Answer: I'd pass. Be patient, a nice set will come up that doesn't need first aid. They aren't that rare, pay a little more upfront if it's something you plan to keep.


    oddiofyl1,107 posts
    12-14-2018 10:16am
    Ouch, the dreaded WAF.....

    According to JBL guys they are worth more in parts.

    "Unfortunately, 240Ti's just aren't that desirable, so they don't sell at any premium over the drivers' raw values. I haven't seen a no-reserve Ebay auction on them, but several sellers keep putting clean sets up at $899 or a thousand and they don't sell. A year or two ago TiDome was offering his clean pair to LH members for $600 and I don't think he sold them. They have a great woofer (LE14H-1) that's worth $175-200 each if pristine. The 044Ti tweeters are also rare, you may be able to get $150 for a perfect pair. The 104H midranges are probably worth $80/pr. Crossovers and cabinets have little or no value, so you get $630 in parts value. Normally, perfect pairs would be worth much more to collectors, but this model seems to be collector proof and is desired mainly for its parts. Good luck, and let us know if you get them!"

    From Lansing Heritage site....
    https://forum.audiogon.com/discussio...tion-very-nice

    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index....th-895.718240/

    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index....a-trip.806199/

    FROM THE POST BELOW: appears that LHF member:tidome has/had a pair that he couldn't sell, maybe check with him ???

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...BL-240Ti-value

    http://www.audioreview.com/product/s...jbl/ti240.html
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    just wait a couple minutes!”

  2. #77
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Peaking at 85db ( C weighted ) is around my limit for home listening.

    I normally listen in the low to mid 70's.


    Frequency (Noise) Weightings

    85dB C is not particularly loud in my opinion. This is also content dependent. If you are listening to a typical '70s rock album at 85dB C it will be significantly louder sounding than a modern pop recording at 85dB C with lots of synthesized low bass content. When comparing music with widely varying spectral content A weighting may be more appropriate for comparing perceived loudness.

    In any event, I think 95dB A to 105dB A is closer to what many would consider fairly loud. 85dBC is hardly background music level, but loud? If the music being played has a lot of deep bass, it can actually seem pretty tame.

    Ultimately this is a pretty subjective area of discussion.


    Widget

  3. #78
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    To buck the trend: IF you wanted to add up the cost of drivers, then @600, is OK.

    Real Answer: I'd pass. Be patient, a nice set will come up that doesn't need first aid. They aren't that rare, pay a little more upfront if it's something you plan to keep.


    oddiofyl1,107 posts
    12-14-2018 10:16am
    Ouch, the dreaded WAF.....

    According to JBL guys they are worth more in parts.

    "Unfortunately, 240Ti's just aren't that desirable, so they don't sell at any premium over the drivers' raw values. I haven't seen a no-reserve Ebay auction on them, but several sellers keep putting clean sets up at $899 or a thousand and they don't sell. A year or two ago TiDome was offering his clean pair to LH members for $600 and I don't think he sold them. They have a great woofer (LE14H-1) that's worth $175-200 each if pristine. The 044Ti tweeters are also rare, you may be able to get $150 for a perfect pair. The 104H midranges are probably worth $80/pr. Crossovers and cabinets have little or no value, so you get $630 in parts value. Normally, perfect pairs would be worth much more to collectors, but this model seems to be collector proof and is desired mainly for its parts. Good luck, and let us know if you get them!"

    FROM THE POST BELOW: appears that LHF member:tidome has/had a pair that he couldn't sell, maybe check with him ???...
    Thanks SEAWOLF, just the type of response I was hoping to read in regards to the 240Ti's. What you said is pretty much what I told the seller, that I understand the parts could potentially be worth what he's asking but I'm not looking to part them out- so $500 is a fair price. Then I see in one of the links you attached (funny that I read through a few before in my own quest for knowledge about the 240Ti's..) and someone gave the advice of $500 for the set of 240Ti's the guy was trying to sell. And those had the original drivers and are in similar shape to the ones I'd potentially buy. I haven't heard back from the seller so perhaps he didn't like my counter response. He has been trying to sell them for over 100 days. I don't want that to be me should I not like them, which I'm sure it would be if I listened to him and even went to try and sell the stuff. Nobody ever factors in their time, effort and such when selling stuff. "I restored this car and even made $5,000!!!" Yeah well you only invested 10k of labor so you lost money IMO...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    85dB C is not particularly loud in my opinion. This is also content dependent. If you are listening to a typical '70s rock album at 85dB C it will be significantly louder sounding than a modern pop recording at 85dB C with lots of synthesized low bass content. When comparing music with widely varying spectral content A weighting may be more appropriate for comparing perceived loudness.

    In any event, I think 95dB A to 105dB A is closer to what many would consider fairly loud. 85dBC is hardly background music level, but loud? If the music being played has a lot of deep bass, it can actually seem pretty tame.

    Ultimately this is a pretty subjective area of discussion.


    Widget
    Ok! So I'll keep 95-105dB in the back of my head the next time I rock the thing out. Might not be for awhile as I suspect my amp is injured. Don't want to kill it. Anyone have any ideas as to what is going on with my amp? The right channel's gain has to be up nearly one third of a turn more than the left channel's in order for both channels to play at the same level...

  4. #79
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    another good choice is a "L100T (3?) "

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...211#post424211
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Ok! So I'll keep 95-105dB in the back of my head the next time I rock the thing out. Might not be for awhile as I suspect my amp is injured. Don't want to kill it. Anyone have any ideas as to what is going on with my amp?
    The right channel's gain has to be up nearly one third of a turn more than the left channel's in order for both channels to play at the same level...
    Some Guesses?

    (i) The bias control on either A or B ( or both ) channels may need adjusting.

    (ii) Also, something may have gone "kaflooey" ( a highly technical term ) within the negative feedback circuit of the left channel ( allowing that channel to run somewhat hotter ).
    - Removing the negative feedback is like taking the "governor" off of a purposely throttled-back engine.


  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek
    If anyone can recommend an SPL app they like, that would be awesome.
    I like AudioTool quite a lot ( for Android ).

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    Importantly, it allows the usage of an external mic plugged into your Android phone ( and the loading of a calibration file > if available for that mic ).


  7. #82
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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  8. #83
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    I like AudioTool quite a lot ( for Android ).
    I'll download this and replace the one I downloaded over the weekend, thanks for the tip!

    On that note, I went and ordered an SPL meter as I learned that my phone self limits to about 85dB A weighted or so. About the highest I could get was 85ish peak, with an average of 80ish as well. So, real meter time. As for our comfortable listening level, about 48-60dB is what we leave it at when tooling around or just enjoying the music.

    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    I love this site, how I found the pair I linked earlier. Guy did not get back with me so he did not like my counter response or my offer to trade him the speakers for a Marantz 4300. Being that I'd have to spend ~$250 on replacement mids for them, I didn't really feel comfortable at $600. Especially right now with my amp and such being suspect and needing more repairs. I didn't want to end up in his shoes waiting 100+ days to sell something & break even. Parting perfectly serviceable gear out isn't my bag either so he can take that attitude and go stuff himself with it..

    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    another good choice is a "L100T (3?) "

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...211#post424211
    Those are on my radar too! Although to be honest, I'm leaning more toward the 240Ti. Based on the head to head reviews of the L100T3 vs 240Ti people give the nod to the 240Ti's. Although the slightly higher sensitivity of the T3's is appealing. I like the look of them over the 240Ti's but after visually comparing the drivers and x/o networks my novice mind says the 240Ti's have the better & more expensive build quality. Which came first, the 240's or the L100T3's?

    In any event, I found a set locally for sale with one crummy pic on Facebook Marketplace for about $750. I told myself if the 240's fell through then I'd see about those. What is a good offer for a set in excellent, then good and fair condition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Some Guesses?

    (i) The bias control on either A or B ( or both ) channels may need adjusting.

    (ii) Also, something may have gone "kaflooey" ( a highly technical term ) within the negative feedback circuit of the left channel ( allowing that channel to run somewhat hotter ).
    - Removing the negative feedback is like taking the "governor" off of a purposely throttled-back engine.

    Hrmm.. So can these issues be fixed without parts? I'm a bit worried since I wasn't able to get the VU meter repaired or find a replacement. Sounds like these issues concern electrical components like resistors and transistor type stuff which I think can still be obtained. The amp didn't have these issues before I took it in. I've also noticed that the right channel takes a good five seconds to come to life after the left channel.

  9. #84
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Well yesterday was a day of discovery. With the 510M wounded I didn't feel comfortable driving it hard but for science I did anyway to compare loudness levels of it vs that crummy Yamasuck receiver. Since my phone auto attenuates to about 80dB both my wife and I had to go by our ears and feel. Here's what we noticed between the two:

    1) Recone was definitely needed; did not notice popping of the woofers with either receiver. I even went with the tried and true "make 'em pop" tune; MC Hammer's U Can't Touch This. Nope. But whoa, the passive radiators were indeed moving around a lot. Still need to test my cabinets though, I figure I'll pull all four woofers, scrape away the paint clinging to the O-rings and then repaint where they mount up on the cabinets to ensure a better seal.

    2) Loudness between the two seems about even, with the nod perhaps slightly toward the Marantz.

    3) Yamasuck (V-R1105 IIRC) started to audibly distort at a setting of -8dB on the volume knob, which is what I listen for when determining max volume levels. Before, the woofers would pop, now I just hear the typical strain I associate with an amp that has started to run out of steam.

    4) Marantz 3600 preamp+510M power amp has no audible distortion when driven to point of the "PEAK" lights flickering. This is seemingly just as loud or slightly louder than the Yamasuck, but with better sound quality overall, especially bass & midrange presentation.

    5) For poop & laughter I hooked my LX44's to front B of Yamasuck and L150A's to front A. Compared the two. I definitely prefer the tweeter of the 150A to whatever is in the LX44. Surprisingly, those little speakers have excellent bass response, they just don't dig as deep as the 150's. But at lower levels, they have more "bump" than the 150A's. However, throw more amp juice at the speakers and the L150A's leave the LX44's behind.

    Here's a pic of the 3600 & 510M together. Notice the spread in the gain knobs... Hopefully that can be fixed.
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  10. #85
    Senior Member brutal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    I've owned my L112s since they were new some 38-years ago. Never had any problem filling a room or the outdoors with all the volume I needed. They've never had anything powering them beyond a Crown D150 for all those years. Try another amp.
    I drove L112's with a Yamaha M-4 amp (spec 125WPC, usually bench testing higher to as much as 170WPC before clipping) for decades at earth shattering volumes with no ill effects. I currently run my 250Ti's with bridged Yamaha PC2002M (~700W) and have run them with bridged PC4002M (1.5KW) and they hit hard with little fatigue. The PC5002M in stereo @500WPC was a flop.

    JBL's (and most any other speaker) needs clean, distortion free power.


  11. #86
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Well, I haven't had good experiences with the handful of Yamaha stuff I've tried. I suppose I'm open to trashing my original concept of building a better late 70's early '80's setup than my dad had in favor of better gear. But I do like the Marantz sound. It's warm and slightly relaxed. I can leave the EQ settings flat and just attenuate the pots on the L150A's instead. What other amp & preamp combos will match that sound or best it for roughly $2,500? 'Cause that's about what I've got into that stuff you see in the pics.

    Although to play devil's advocate, did you see some of my earlier posts where I put that Yammie head to head against the Marantz stuff I've got? In short, both caused the left woofer to produce that popping noise. Lastly, the Marantz edged out the Yamaha in sound quality and overall loudness & distortion free listening. And that was while "wounded" as I put it. The Yammie started to audibly distort before it produced the popping noise while the Marantz was tickling the "peak" lights a bit more often than usual. The popping happened as the "peak" lights were NOT lit, for what that's worth.

    I still think I've got a bum 128H or a bad job on the recone. This weekend was a busy one. Sunday I got around to downloading AudioTool (which is awesome, I like it. Thanks Earl!) Also thanks to Mac for sending me a link but since I don't use my home computer much and Windows 10 likes to update every time I do (which takes hours..) I broke down and forked over cash for AudioTool as I didn't want to wait. I used a 20hz test tone to get the woofers moving a pretty good deal. I used the Yammie as the Marantz stuff is under the knife. No popping noise when using the tone but I did notice the PR300's were fluttering like a humming bird's wings. Could feel a bit of air leaking from the fasteners on the left side. The PR's also made a bit of noise themselves, like a faint rattle. Decided to pull the woofers and PR's out to clean up the o-rings & mating surfaces and verify the PR's had equal weight on each. Good thing I did that, the right side had five discs and the left side had three. I didn't see anyone else do this but I decided to put silicone on the o-ring mating surface for each woofer and on the threads of the fasteners to better seal the cabinets and to make removal easier. Never thought I'd be in and out of a speaker assy this often. End result is that the same test tone didn't produce as much movement from the woofers as I saw before so perhaps the cabinets are sealing better. At this point I think I'd need a smoke machine to find any other leaks, certainly didn't feel any. I also put silicone around the mids and their fasteners. Buut the left side still pops when driven. I tried rotating the left woofer 90 degrees and no difference. Popping isn't as loud as it was before recone but still sounds like the voice coil is rubbing, just not as bad. Only makes the noise when the woofer comes out into the room, not into the cabinet.

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  12. #87
    Senior Member Chris Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    I think you might be right, that I am expecting too much. I went through and reread Chris Brown's post about his L150's and he describes the same thing. Also says he reminds himself not to drive them so hard. I also think DavidF has a good point, that my gear is suspect.

    I don't even know what Cerwins from the late 70's or early 80's look like, not a fan haha. The ones I've seen just have those trademark red surrounds and cheap looking vinyl siding. They have a party speaker reputation. I heard they pound but everything else is lacking, much like MTX. I am after neutrality & honesty with sound. The JBL's I've listened to have given me that, including these L150A's. But, while not a fan of Cerwin I am neutral and eager to hear a set but based on the reading I've done on them, I doubt I'd be happy any set I come across. What got me stuck on JBL's was they won the war between my old Bose 301's & E30's I think. Not to mention I've seen them all over at concerts and establishments in addition to recording studios. They must do something right. The cheapie Northridge series I have handled everything I threw at them, so I mistakenly assumed that must be a trademark of JBL in general. Hell, even their sales literature states the stuff can jam. F'in marketing strikes again haha.
    I hope that I didn't give you the impression that they can't still put out serious bass. It's never been anything I could fault the woofers for when it happened to me. That made me wonder though, what do your cones look like while you are hearing popping? I mean are they really moving? I have some videos I made that are somewhat close to the limits of what the woofer can handle. I'd be curious what your cone movement is like compared to these videos:

    Older video of my L150s, closeup of the 128H in action. Audio very distorted due to Webcam microphone not being up to the task but shows cone movement very well.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zrm2QbCfU4

    More recent overall system videos using my phone that have several closeups of the 128H woofers in action:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W4LfRDaGPg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWjJFfcRyrU


    It's really only the ultra-low bass that presents a risk at all, as that has the most excursion. If it does seem like an excursion issue, you might consider a subwoofer and using the subwoofer's crossover to limit the ultra-low bass from going to the L150s. You could use a very low crossover, something like 45hz or lower, which would still have the L150s producing a very large portion of the bass, but shifting the potential problem frequencies over to the sub.

    Regarding the Cerwins, I had not one but two different pairs of D-9's in the past, considered to be one of their best from the era. I ultimately didn't have the room to keep them and my growing collection of JBLs at the same time. I spent extensive amount of time directly comparing my L150s against a pair of my D-9's and it was an easy victory for the L150s. While the D-9's might have been able to put out more raw output, the L150s weren't very far behind and the quality of the sound was clearly superior. I sold the D-9's to a friend where I had the chance to enjoy them countless more times afterward, but there is really something nice and special about the bass from the L150s, likely due to the passive radiator.



  13. #88
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    That's your video? I came upon that while researching the L150 & 150A before pulling the trigger on the set I have now. Amidst what originally sold me on 'em. I notice now that your SPL meter seemed to peak at 119 dB in that video, I'll keep that in mind for when mine actually shows up. Excursion is the issue, my woofers move out and in much further than yours did in the video. Seems like they try to move a good two inches out from their resting position at times and that is what does it. Guess I could get a subwoofer but I've never really heard any that were musical and the only one I know of that is vintage is that one JBL unit, a 460 or something. Super spendy and then I need an amp and controller for it.. Anyway, like you said about the bass of L150's, there's this texture to them, I like the way it sounds.

    How do you like your L100T3's? Have you ever listened to 240Ti's? What would your opinion be of the two of them? Someone suggested building my own L220's from naked cabinets and I wonder if all of the drivers from a 240Ti would fit in the cabinet of a L220. I'd like to stay with a tower or floor standing speaker, not a fan of speakers on stands for this particular room.

    Those Cerwin D-9's look like the Cerwin's I've seen in my past. I just can't get past how cheap and "homemade" Cerwins of that era look. Like as if the mids & woofer came straight from Radioshack and the cabinets were repurposed from cheap laminate tables.. Vintage JBL's look elegant by comparison. My one friend said my L150A's look "like something from grandpa's basement" but that's just fine by me.

    Anyone have any recommendations for a crossover I can use with my system, preferably vintage? My preamp does have a 30hz filter but I think that's a tad too low, 40hz would be better suited to what I'm doing.

    Biamping sounds like an idea too. But that means getting another 510M if I keep with the vintage theme. Over 500watts. Yikes. Haven't done the math yet but at some point I'm going to cross the threshold of what that particular circuit can supply.

  14. #89
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Here's a suggestion I made to a poster over on AK re 220's. He had some beat up stuff but his cabs were not that bad.

    So , what I'm getting at is that the empty cabs that are available would be a good starting point , do my cab mods as shown , fire in a le14H or if you are feeling special 2216 , add your horn of choice or stay with the le5 etc.

    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.....846871/page-2


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  15. #90
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Xmax for 128H is only 1/3" ... 2" is right out.

    I would guess 1) simply expecting too much and over driving the system or 2) the box tuning (passive radiator in this case... seems there was a question there about the proper number of discs) is off quite a bit and not controlling the woofer motion at resonance... if the PRs are OK (compliance and weight) it may mean the woofers are not performing to spec. In any case, running them at more than 1/2" in 1/2" out is not recommended and noises/damage may well be expected. I would expect the PR/128H/box to be set up for minimum woofer motion (maximum PR motion) between 20-30Hz.

    I ran a 300w/ch Perreaux high-current amp with the pair I have, and experienced no such excessive excursion or noises, but my listening preferences and environment could well be different. I doubt I ever hit 100w on peaks (cannon shots excepted)

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