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Thread: Please help with 128H's in L150A's. :)

  1. #61
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But I think you're right on about something hitting the frame, what else could make that noise?
    I've read abt a foam filter decaying & depositing debris into the gap, a refoam would not really address that.
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    I've read abt a foam filter decaying & depositing debris into the gap, a refoam would not really address that.

    Derek had full recones ( aftermarket I believe ) done to his 128's .

    I'll assume the reconer was hip enough to her job to clean the gap as well as remove any crumbling foam from the center "blow-hole" when she put those cones in.


  3. #63
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Oh, that's a bummer... I just started to like this Marantz stuff too, and I'm afraid I've got too much into it to be able to go to something else. What amp would you recommend from those guys and what could I expect to pay? But I think you're right on about something hitting the frame, what else could make that noise?
    Hold on. The idea was to borrow one, not buy one. It must be frustratingbut you don't want to go way off in different directions and spending bucks trying to figurethis out.

    If everything is "good" then the woofers should not taking peak powerfrom this amp (around 250 watts, right?) just to achieve a "reasonable" sound level. Should be loud as hell with that power in a typical room. Assuming peak power indicators are showing power at clipping.

    You have no equalization in the signal at the low end, right? No massive, or otherwise, boost to bass?

    I believe you indicated using two different amps with the sameresult. I presume also that the problem of popping did not show up with the receiver and your other set of speakers. This cuts chances down for amp issuesbut since both are older units that doesn't mean everything is OK on theamp side. Based upon Rusty's situation, it could helpful to you to use a morecurrent amp, temporarily, to find if the problempersists. Not sure where I would go and just borrow an amp, myself, soI know that this suggestion could be problem.

    If you are truly bottoming the active woofer then the passive cone must bedancing a frightful dance since the excursion of apassive is supposed to exceed that of the woofer in itsoperating range. Is that what you see when this popping occurs?

    Have you pulled the passives to look them over for issues in terms of holes or leaks? These drivers have- I forget- two or three MDF round pieces to act as the mass adjustment for the passive. Held on by a screw right behind the dust dome when looking from the rear. Are they installed?


    David F
    San Jose

  4. #64
    Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Thanks for the response David!

    Well, borrowing one would sure be nice, but none of my friends are into audio gear so I've got access to no other amps. I could drag up my modern Marantz SR7005 but that is only 125 watts and EVERYTHING is hooked up to it, TV, five speakers (JBL Northridge stuff), Xbox, ect.. Would be a major PITA but I suppose it would be worth it.

    I did some thinking about what Rusty said.. I find it hard to believe that when new, the stuff I've got and other stuff on the same level failed to drive these speakers and similar others. They may not be as efficient or able to supply the amperage but they got the job done.
    EDIT: I did try the L150A's out with the Marantz 4300 I've got, they popped there initially so I figured it was lack of power, hence why I bought the 510M & 3600. Oy.. Even though I had the L150A's hooked to that junky R-V11xx 115 watt Yamaha "Natural Sound" receiver, I didn't dare crank it. That thing sounded like junk, freakin' terrible, so tinny, harsh and as far away from natural as you could get. The Marantz is pure bliss by comparison. I did not watch the PR's but I did notice each has 3 mass rings on the back of them and they were reconed. Had to be, original cones are supposed to be black and these are purplish. Mac is kind enough to send me a 20hz-20khz wave form to test my speakers so I'll be able to address any air leaks I may have here shortly. I don't think they move like crazy but they do move. Didn't know they are essentially supposed to move more than the 128H's.. I don't think they do...

    I did some more listening and tuning last night. I did confirm that there is some sort of gain problem within the Marantz 510M. First and foremost: The gain control on the left side of the amp (as you're facing it) actually controls the right channel and vice versa. Really strange. But I double checked my connections and verified left and right with a sound test CD. Is this normal? Can anyone that has or had a 510M confirm this for me? Anyhow, the gain knob on the left has to be dialed up about 15-20 degrees (about an 1/8th of a turn) higher than the gain knob on the right side of the amp in order to match the level of the speaker. If you set both gain knobs to the same setting, the sound favors the left side. I verified that the preamp or my source isn't the cause of this by swapping L & R cables and then omitting the pre amp (Marantz 3600). Left side always favored no matter what. What causes this? I just got the amp back from service. I'll be calling them today to schedule returning it but I'd like to be prepared for what I'm in for. Doesn't seem like it's ok to run it like that.

    But with that info out of the way, more listening happened. I turned up the pots on the L150A's a smidge for both the mids & tweets. Balanced out that thrum of the bass drivers (things run up to 1100hz! ) and smoothed things out overall while of course letting the system seem a bit louder. Bass performance still acceptable.
    I considered maximum volume level to be where the "PEAK" lights on the face of the amp flicker here and there for both channels, as if I'm just dancing with the maximum threshold. System actually seems loud. It sounds so good & smooth I want to push it just a smidge harder but those lights tell me that would be a bad idea.. But after listening for 30 minutes my ears were ringing despite lack of ear fatigue.. The set-up downstairs (Marantz SR7005, JBL E90's & two E250P's) would always start to fatigue my ears, forcing me to shut down my jam session before I was ready and I'd walk away with ringing in my ears. Not to mention I compared the two and the Northridge set up plays at a lower volume than the L150A set-up. Interesting considering the E90's have a sensitivity rating of 91dB and the L150A's come in a 89dB. Difference of power I suppose, and I do have quite a bit of EQ going on with the 7005 to remove up to 4dB of the midrange area with those E90's which makes my ears bleed, (1khz - 4khz).

    So, did I experience woofer pop? Yes, but this time the PEAK lights weren't displayed either time it happened while listening to Axle F (just to coax the popping) And it was more laid back, almost sounds like pronounced rubbing, like think old tin washboard or something, "BROP!" If driven harder, it would have probably been the classic "POP!" I'm familiar with. Worth mentioning is that when this noise happens, the woofer is moving out towards the room/listener, not bottoming out. So I think the recone job helped, my wife verified that yep, the system is definitely able to play louder than it was before. So we sat and enjoyed some Three Dog Night, CAKE, The Cars and some Pretenders before the obligations of life compelled us to sleep for our day jobs.

  5. #65
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I think you really need to look closer at parking that (or those) old amplifiers until you have ruled them out as the problem. Or the preamp, for that matter.

    "Purplish" for color on the passive cones sound correct to me. Depending upon the light. They are not black.
    David F
    San Jose

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek
    I considered maximum volume level to be where the "PEAK" lights on the face of the amp flicker here and there for both channels, as if I'm just dancing with the maximum threshold. System actually seems loud.

    It sounds so good & smooth I want to push it just a smidge harder but those lights tell me that would be a bad idea.. But
    after listening for 30 minutes my ears were ringing despite lack of ear fatigue..

    The set-up downstairs (Marantz SR7005,
    JBL E90's & two E250P's) would always start to fatigue my ears, forcing me to shut down my jam session before I was ready and I'd walk away with ringing in my ears.

    Not to mention I compared the two and the Northridge set up plays at a lower volume than the L150A set-up. Interesting considering the E90's have a sensitivity rating of 91dB and the L150A's come in a 89dB. Difference of power I suppose, and I do have quite a bit of EQ going on with the 7005 to remove up to 4dB of the midrange area with those E90's which makes my ears bleed, (1khz - 4khz).
    I think most of your problems Derek with those L150's woofers ( as well as desire to tinker with the other components ) stem from having unrealistic expectations ( level wise ) as to what HiFi components such as these can really deliver ( before distorting ).

    Though these big box systems may look like Cerwin Vega from the same era ( they were never meant to keep up to CV's in a straight volume level war ).

    As far as I'm concerned all your popping problems ( of the woofers ) are just the woofers running out of Xmech/Xmax ( as Greg Timbers has mentioned before these older legacy woofers with shallow frames run out of Xmech pretty quickly > he should know, he designed that woofer ) .

    I believe you should build a system that's much more sensitive ( at least 95db ) out of pro components so that you can pound it out ( cleanly ) .










  7. #67
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    I think you might be right, that I am expecting too much. I went through and reread Chris Brown's post about his L150's and he describes the same thing. Also says he reminds himself not to drive them so hard. I also think DavidF has a good point, that my gear is suspect.

    I don't even know what Cerwins from the late 70's or early 80's look like, not a fan haha. The ones I've seen just have those trademark red surrounds and cheap looking vinyl siding. They have a party speaker reputation. I heard they pound but everything else is lacking, much like MTX. I am after neutrality & honesty with sound. The JBL's I've listened to have given me that, including these L150A's. But, while not a fan of Cerwin I am neutral and eager to hear a set but based on the reading I've done on them, I doubt I'd be happy any set I come across. What got me stuck on JBL's was they won the war between my old Bose 301's & E30's I think. Not to mention I've seen them all over at concerts and establishments in addition to recording studios. They must do something right. The cheapie Northridge series I have handled everything I threw at them, so I mistakenly assumed that must be a trademark of JBL in general. Hell, even their sales literature states the stuff can jam. F'in marketing strikes again haha.

    I don't know of any late 70's through early 80's gear with sensitivity ratings at or above 95dB, other than Klipsch that is. Everyone that messes with Klipsch always mentions Crites or Bob somethingorother. So some assembly is required with those to get them smooth & laidback.. But I'm not ready to give up on JBL just yet. If things work out I may have a set of 240Ti's to demo this weekend. That puts me at the late 80's of gear, but I'm willing to try them out and see if anything is different. What do you guys think about Infinity Column II's? I once had an opportunity to score a set for $300... They looked nice but if I remember right, they sourced all of their drivers from other companies..

  8. #68
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    . But I'm not ready to give up on JBL just yet. If things work out I may have a set of 240Ti's to demo this weekend. That puts me at the late 80's of gear, but I'm willing to try them out and see if anything is different. What do you guys think about Infinity Column II's? I once had an opportunity to score a set for $300... They looked nice but if I remember right, they sourced all of their drivers from other companies..
    The LE14H-1's in my 250Ti's will go louder than I can stand, w/o me hearing any distortion... they'll rattle the windows.
    I've worked on numerous 'finities ... not impressed with their drivers, but they seem to have fans, even with cheap stamped steel LF's.
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

  9. #69
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    I think most of your problems Derek with those L150's woofers ( as well as desire to tinker with the other components ) stem from having unrealistic expectations ( level wise ) as to what HiFi components such as these can really deliver ( before distorting ).

    Though these big box systems may look like Cerwin Vega from the same era ( they were never meant to keep up to CV's in a straight volume level war ).

    As far as I'm concerned all your popping problems ( of the woofers ) are just the woofers running out of Xmech/Xmax ( as Greg Timbers has mentioned before these older legacy woofers with shallow frames run out of Xmech pretty quickly > he should know, he designed that woofer ) .

    I believe you should build a system that's much more sensitive ( at least 95db ) out of pro components so that you can pound it out ( cleanly ) .






    Good advise as to shear acoustic power. I wouldn't put the L150 behind any CW, though, except as to sensitivity and a proud-to-be-loud attitude.

    I second your comments on Xmax and excursion. Not sure the 128H was constructed as were the 14 and 15 inch, though, in terms of Xmax. Just a guess. I do recall a caveat with respect to bottoming out and such in that using the woofers outside of intended application (not as sub woofers, HT movie content, etc) is where you would run into issues.

    My experience with the 128H (similar sized enclosure to the L150, but tuned differently) is that it would go outrageously loud with enough power. Never appeared to test it's maximum excursion with musical content, no bass boost, no club material with that synthesized deep bass, playing to a fair-sized room.

    Best I can tell the woofers are now up to spec in terms of OEM parts and performance. No reason to think some loud music (again, no bass boost, no high low/low bass material) would ever tax them as described by Derek. I could be wrong, reading about ringing ears (protect your ears! Tinnitus in old age is not so fun). He describes noises with the cones if forward displacement, not just backward where you would think about the coil hitting the plate.

    So, I am thinking popping noises and scratchy sounds could easily be a thermal problem in the amp, failing resistor, transistor? Too much DC voltage coming with the signal? Just wouldn't want to give up on the L150's. They is so fine!
    David F
    San Jose

  10. #70
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    I've owned my L112s since they were new some 38-years ago. Never had any problem filling a room or the outdoors with all the volume I needed. They've never had anything powering them beyond a Crown D150 for all those years. Try another amp.
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    The LE14H-1's in my 250Ti's will go louder than I can stand, w/o me hearing any distortion... they'll rattle the windows.
    I've worked on numerous 'finities ... not impressed with their drivers, but they seem to have fans, even with cheap stamped steel LF's.
    Yeah, that's the impression I was left with after researching those Column II's. Cabinets and such were beautiful but the drivers I saw and read about just stalled me out, so I missed out on them. Can't find anything published about their sensitivity ratings either. Although, I was curious since those had a 10" downfiring "subwoofer" in addition to the 10" midbass and typical mid range with piezo type (IIRC) tweets.

    Anyway, do you think $600 is a fair price for these 240Ti's? https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/...mages/2249865/
    I've been chatting with the fellow selling these and have discovered that mids aren't original, aren't even JBL's, must be aftermarket of some sort. Labeled "JBC" or something. After learning that I'm trying to get the price down to $500. Says the woofers have been reconed but is also not happy with my offer of $500 as he started to go on about how much the drivers are worth and all that. Well, 104H's go for about $100 a pop too, so if I paid $600 I'm now at ~$850 once you factor in shipping and such for the 104H's once I find them. I think at best that is a $800 set of 240Ti's, right? I'm just tired of people trying to sell me on hypothetical prices, that and I'm tired of overpaying and then underselling.. The 044ti tweeters I've seen for sale, well the one has been reposted to eBay for almost a year now, so finding a buyer is critical and if I don't like these things I'm not going to want to part them out and then have to sit on the parts. But if you guys feel $600 is fair for those even though the mids aren't original then let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF View Post
    Good advise as to shear acoustic power. I wouldn't put the L150 behind any CW, though, except as to sensitivity and a proud-to-be-loud attitude.

    I second your comments on Xmax and excursion. Not sure the 128H was constructed as were the 14 and 15 inch, though, in terms of Xmax. Just a guess. I do recall a caveat with respect to bottoming out and such in that using the woofers outside of intended application (not as sub woofers, HT movie content, etc) is where you would run into issues.

    My experience with the 128H (similar sized enclosure to the L150, but tuned differently) is that it would go outrageously loud with enough power. Never appeared to test it's maximum excursion with musical content, no bass boost, no club material with that synthesized deep bass, playing to a fair-sized room.

    Best I can tell the woofers are now up to spec in terms of OEM parts and performance. No reason to think some loud music (again, no bass boost, no high low/low bass material) would ever tax them as described by Derek. I could be wrong, reading about ringing ears (protect your ears! Tinnitus in old age is not so fun). He describes noises with the cones if forward displacement, not just backward where you would think about the coil hitting the plate.

    So, I am thinking popping noises and scratchy sounds could easily be a thermal problem in the amp, failing resistor, transistor? Too much DC voltage coming with the signal? Just wouldn't want to give up on the L150's. They is so fine!
    My amp is definitely suspect. Something is failing inside it, it's going back to that shop on Monday. I don't remember having to have the gains at different positions in order to attain the same level for both channels. What could that be?

    Anyway, with the Marantz stuff and the pots on each speaker for the mids & highs I have the EQ on the pre amp flat, just one bump down on midrange. I never go above "0", only lower with EQ. No club crap, just music played by real musicians with real instruments and actual talent. With some exceptions here and there, must still sound musical with plenty of instrumental contrast. I can't stand beats on repeat that is modern music. It all sounds like repetitive hand clap, sprinkers, boom-boom and finger snapping to me. That's noise, not music.

    I still need to make a 40hz test tone to check how air tight those cabinets are. I checked the PR's and they don't move a whole lot. They move, but not more than the 128H's which you guys said they should. That could be part of the problem. The popping definitely comes from the speakers when it happens, it sounds like physical noise..

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    I've owned my L112s since they were new some 38-years ago. Never had any problem filling a room or the outdoors with all the volume I needed. They've never had anything powering them beyond a Crown D150 for all those years. Try another amp.
    That's another point.. I think I really need a second opinion as to how loud my set up actually goes. For all I know, it's loud as can be. But also, what settings are your mid & tweeter pots at? I dahm near used a degree wheel to set all four of mine equally. My mids are now just above "3" and my tweeters are close to "2.7", thinking off hand. If I was to set those all flat at 0, it would appear much louder but then to me it would sound forward and most certainly harsh. It's at the point now where I think it's loud enough, I just wish I had a little more oomph left for those guitar and other instrumental interludes. Like for example, I'm a Mellencamp fan. I love the song "Check it Out." Mid way through the song there's a pause followed by some guitar work I rather enjoy, and would like to enjoy just a bit louder for those seconds so I can feel that in my soul. To leave the amp at those levels full time would be hell, but for those few moments, bliss. I think you know what I mean

  12. #72
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    So he's selling at $600 , I'd be on those like a rash even with the wrong mids. The correct mid has a poly cone , sorry can't remember the number. Condition is generally good , the little dings are easily fixed.
    As myself and others have said before , this is a better speaker than the 150 by a good margin.

    It does seem that you need to get your amp checked out properly , something is amiss.

    M

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  13. #73
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    Derek,

    I like the advisement to try another amp.

    I'm in Pro Sound, always use pro grade amps here at home ( QSC & Bryston ) so have a hard time relating to "soft-circuit" mush caused by compromised "all-in-one" receivers.
    - The last one of that type I purchased back in 1973 ( a Sherwood ).

    You might want to consider buying a $25.00 SPL meter through Amazon ( or similar ).
    - It would be useful to all involved to know how loud you're listening habits are.

    OTOH, there's likely one or two Smart Phone apps that are just as accurate as a dedicated $25.00 meter ( I just don't know which ones to recommend ).


  14. #74
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    Thanks for the replies fellas.

    Well then, if I haven't insulted the guy I'll honor my original offer of $600. I did know about the poly cone, how I originally spotted it. That and the frame is supposed to be black, not bright.

    I believe I am using pro audio components. I am no longer using the Marantz 4300, instead I've upgrade to a Marantz 3600 preamp paired up with a Marantz 510M power amp. Pro stuff in it's day.

    If anyone can recommend an SPL app they like, that would be awesome. Also, what do you guys consider loud?

  15. #75
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    Also, what do you guys consider loud?
    Peaking at 85db ( C weighted ) is around my limit for home listening.

    I normally listen in the low to mid 70's.


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