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Thread: JBL 4530 dividing to Hf drivers.

  1. #1
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    JBL 4530 dividing to Hf drivers.

    Hello.
    New forum member here with lots of newbie questions that I would be grateful for some answers to.
    I want to buy or build a pair of 4530 that im going to combine with a 2447J midrange driver on a 2309 horn with 2310 lens. Need to find a 1.5 to 2 horn adapter. And top it off with a 2405 tweeter. I have two 2226h woofers wich are going in the 4530s the horns lenses and hf drivers I also have. Now some questions. How do I mount the tweeter on the 2309 horn? Is there a Jbl part that’s made for it? I have a two way crossover 75671, can I connect the 2405 tweeter on the hf out together with the 2447J from that or do I have to find a three way crossover? I could do a bi-amp with one amp for the 4530s and one for the hf drivers but I don’t want to use three amps. Is there a simple solution to divide the 2447 and 2405 and run them from one amp?

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    Senior Member jbl4ever's Avatar
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    Hello Amon and welcome to the LH site. For the 2309/2310 horn assembly to work properly it needs a baffle for it to mount on. Jbl made a mounting kit years ago, i believe it was a MA15. You can make your own and add a little more height to mount the 2405. Some were one the site it shows the dimension for
    mounting the above horn. I have both 4520 and 4530's. I am not familiar with the crossover 75671 as to what frequencies it works for. You might only have to make a 3106 crossover. If you have to start from scratch because the 75671 does not work, your choices would be for those components passive models 3115A/500hz or 3110A/800hz and 3106. Hope this helps and check out the bottom of the forum page for links to great info

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    Thank you! If I where to use electronic crossovers, digital. And cross at 800hz for example.
    So everything above 800hz goes to the 2447J Could I then just connect the 2405 in series with that or do I need something in between?

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    Junior Member macsic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmonSoderberg View Post
    Thank you! If I where to use electronic crossovers, digital. And cross at 800hz for example.
    So everything above 800hz goes to the 2447J Could I then just connect the 2405 in series with that or do I need something in between?
    If you don't use a passive like 3105 or 3106, you need to protect the 2405 with a cap, in 16 Ohms a value of 1.2uF will be a good choice, I think.
    I did this in the past now I use a passive cross and the best move is to use tube amp for 2447 and 2405
    Bye,
    Music is emotion.

  5. #5
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Another issue is that your mid driver and horn have a higher sensitivity than the 2405 has so you may want to pad down the mid driver a bit.


    Widget

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    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    The N7000/N8000 (or earlier name) is what was used back in the days between whatever mid compressor and 2405 on top (bottom photo). It is a pretty basic crossover that surely can be improved. Notice it has a potentiometer to tweak the highs.

    So, in clubs, the signal from the mixer/preamp would go into a JBL/Urei 5234a with the appropriate frequency card, which would split the signal in two. Bass and the "upper". The bass signal goes to one amp which goes into the 4530, and the "upper" signal goes into another amp, then goes into the small N7000/8000 crossover which divides between the mid and the highs at 7Khz or 8Khz. I recommend 8Khz.

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    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Did I mention that the 2226 is a very wrong woofer for a horn? BL is much too high. I suggest looking for some 2205 instead. Lower Fs30 and lower BL. Much better if a good sounding bass matters to you.

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    Thanks for the feedback. I have heard that the 2225 is a recommended driver for 4530 and is’nt the 2226 just an improved 2225? However I cant find any 4530s around here so I got a par of 4645b instead,so now my plan is to divide up to a 2226 as a low mid and then up to the 2447j and use a cap for the 2405.
    So now Im wondering what kind of enclosure to build for the 2226 as a low mid. Maybe a HD15 horn or a closed box? One more thing,when I read about the 4645B I saw some opinions about cabinets damped with fiberglass being bad for your health and that it would flow out fiberglass dust from the ports. Never heard that before and all cabinets I had back in the 80s was damped with fiberglass. Maybe I should put a filter over the port and see if some dust will stick? Or is this just some internet rumor?

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    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Amon,

    The only drivers I have ever seen recommended by JBL for 4530 use are 2205 and E-140 (K-140). Some folks have used others, even with relative success, such as 2225 and E-145, but these were not specifically recommended for that use. The 2220 could also work technically, but it is weaker on bass and more pronounced on low mid, with reduced excursion capability, making it much less desirable in practice...

    2205, 2225 and 2226 may be SOMEWHAT seen as successors or the latter two as "improved" versions, mostly power and excursion wise, however there are other changes made to the newer drivers, that accompany the "update" and these changes sometimes narrow driver applications suitability. For the purpose of horn use the 2226 driver Qts of 0.31 is high, compared to others: 2205 (0.21), 2220 (0.17) and E-140 (0.17) for example. It will still produce sound, maybe acceptably, but probably not optimal sound as the Design Engineer had intended. The 2226 is not really a driver designed for horn-loading (e.g. Qts). Maybe better sealed or vented box then. Btw I didn't see any mention in the 2226 spec sheet of possible horn box use.

    As for Fiberglass, don't put a filter over the port since this will reduce the performance of the vent and therefore increase LF distortion. I think you should be more concerned about fibers making their way inside the driver's back vent going to the Voice coil, depending if the driver has a screen, a foam or nothing on the back vent to prevent intruders (dust, dirt, fibers, etc).

    If you are really concerned about Fiberglass fibers in the air, you can try one of the following suggestions: spray fixative women use on their hair to keep it in place, spray a very light coat on the Fiberglass, this will keep the fibers in place; or do the same with spray paint (very light coat again to avoid the Fiberglass getting hard); or wrap the Fiberglass in cheese cloth (the type used to remove the dried wax when waxing the car).

    I did the latter option many years ago when building my 2205 cabs since I thought there were too many fibers going around in the boxes when tacking the Fiberglass on the walls and feared some may enter the drivers' back vent (screen). You can also replace the insulation type Fiberglass with Polyester which seems to have much less small fiber issues. Regards,

    Richard

  10. #10
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    EDIT TO POST # 9:

    Hi Amon,

    The absence of possible horn-loading mention in the 2226 spec sheet can be compared to the 2227H spec sheet where this time it is specifically mentioned (see first paragraph right under the driver's picture in spec sheet).

    Ideal 2227 applications are given as stage monitoring with their typical small enclosures plus for bass and mid-bass horns. Not recommended for subwoofer use. Incidentally, If you look further down on the spec sheet you will note that driver's Qts is 0.21, also a low number...

    When used in vented boxes for example, low Qts drivers are typically "more at ease" in smaller box volumes, otherwise their LF response drops rapidly in larger boxes, this is why I underlined "with their typical small enclosures" above. Finally, this 2227 spec sheet is another illustration of a low Qts driver being suitable for horn-loading as mentioned in JBL's specs. The 2226 Qts of 0.31 is well above that, but it may still produce sound in a horn, how well is the question... Regards

    Richard

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    Where do you live Amon? I got 4 4530....

    And a couple of 2446 I can swap for 2447. And a nice pair of 2450J for sale.

    Best regards

    Mårten

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    Low Qes is what you seek in front loaded horns since they will fight mass rolloff. In a rear loaded horn you want the horn only to amplify the bass, the midrange is from the front of the driver. Low Q will also generate cone excursion below Fs. Low Q is not a big problem though.

    You want high Fs in a back loaded horn because you want to limit the cone movement below the horn cutoff, about 50 Hz for the 4530.

    You want a light cone because of the direct radiated midrange. Curved cone is nice because of less breakups.

    You want a tough cone because the horn loading will increase the forces on the cone.

    2226 will work but the midrange is inferior. 2225 is almost the same.

    2227 is a very good choice. Reinforced cone. Pretty hard to get though. Low Q

    2220 is a good choice, but the cone is a bit too weak, avoid playing loud. Low Q

    E145, E140, 2205 has too low Fs.

    E130 K130 D130 too low xmax (0.76)

    The 4530 has a problem at 150 Hz where the front of the cone will be out of phase with the horn. There is also a problem above 150 Hz because of the chamber will reflect midrange right back. The midrange sounds awful actually. The remedy is to have a dedicated midrange (2220, 2202) between the 4530 and the high horn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by more10 View Post
    Where do you live Amon? I got 4 4530....

    And a couple of 2446 I can swap for 2447. And a nice pair of 2450J for sale.

    Best regards

    Mårten
    Hi.
    I live in Solna. Thing is my 2447 sits in a pair of 4733 and I want to be able to reverse them back to original if I want to sell them later. Im also borrowing the 2226 from those boxes to use as a low mid. What kind of drivers do you have in your 4530s ? And are those for sale? Another idea would be to trade the 4733’s for the 4530’s and the 2446’s ?

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    Member MoD's Avatar
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    AmonSoderberg,

    Check out my thread.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ing-heritage-)

    I came to this conclusion; 4530 is too short horn path and have to small mouth for reproduction of deep bass. D130 is good enough for 4530 (and can play higher, so You can get away with two way). I have tried 2227 in 4530 and there is not much gain in deep bass reproduction because horn limitation, but 2227 like stronger amplifier. In order to take advantage of 2227 You should use bigger horn. This apply to home hi-fi use...

    I wonder if anybody here ever tried to load 2227 drivers in to 4520 horn?

    EDIT: this summer I will build big bass horn and take a measurements of both D130 and 2227.
    do not surrender never, except when you have to

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    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi MoD,

    I must say you have a lot of courage to embark on projects such as those shown: LF AND mid-high frequency horns! This is difficult work you have achieved! At a time when a number of major manufacturers, such as JBL, have simply jumped off the LF horn-loading train long ago for various reasons, like the cost of Watts being so low.

    I think that expecting deep bass from a 4530 cabinet is pretty much a mirage, maybe more so with a D/K 130 woofer. The D/K 130 is basically a lead guitar driver with extended response taylored accordingly, nothing wrong with that by itself. However, it was not purposely designed for higher level lower bass reproduction, like the K/E 140 bass guitar and low-frequency reinforcement driver is [or 2205 (2225)], for example. As long as one knows, preferably beforehand, and accepts the limitations involved, the rest doesn't really matter if the customer is satisfied.

    The rear-loaded cabs were mostly used in discotheques. With a 4530 you get "punchy" bass from amplitude in LF response, not deep bass from extended bandwidth. By analogy, the effect is like rising the 63 hz or so slider on an EQ, instead of reaching deeper into the low frequencies. So one gets more or increased bass at certain frequencies, that's it. The horn's effect is on a limited frequency range, about 50 hz to 150 hz, with largest impact between about 60 and 100 hz. In my view one should not add EQ, if need be, below 60 hz with that type of enclosure since it gets risky for the driver.

    The LF response curve you showed for your box/driver looks roughly like the one shown by JBL for the 4530/2205 combination. So you're not off-track, though JBL's shows about 10 hz deeper bass which may be due to woofer selected?

    I certainly encourage anyone interested in building that type of boxes to read/study carefully JBL's own document on these (see attached), in order to determine if they will meet the LF expectations one has, before cutting wood. Some seem to think, or are expecting, it may be similar to a "subwoofer" type cab, and its not. Regards,

    Richard

    P.S. I already had another post in the making for this thread, it should come in the near future.


    JBL low_frequency_enclosures2[1].pdf

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