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Thread: Altec Driver Parameters?

  1. #1
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    Altec Driver Parameters?

    So I diving into WINIsd of the first time, trying to learn it.

    Can't go very far it seems without driver parameters. What is the best source for known driver parameters? Is there a master list somewhere that has been compiled. There seems to only be a couple Altec drivers listed in the native driver folder on WINIsd.

    Sorry if this is a stupid question.

    BTW I am using 0.7.0.950 release.

    Thanks!

    PS - Too bad most of the Youtube tutorials for WINIsd are for car subwoofer applications.

  2. #2
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Drugolf,

    There is no one single source where one will find everything, sniff. It would be too easy...

    You can try:

    GPA web site

    alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net

    You should be able to find some on the above two sites, maybe some on lansing heritage also.

    As for learning Win ISD I suggest you read the help files to learn how it works, you should be OK after that.

    I have a few driver databases, so if you can't find info for one driver let me know MAYBE I have it somewhere...
    Regards,

    Richard

  3. #3
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    If you’re looking for Altec 414 T/S parameters, I never had any luck getting them. Maybe Earl has?

  4. #4
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Chas,

    I have the TS for Altec 414 8C and 8E. Are these the ones sought? Let me know, I'll be back later no time now gotta go...

    Richard

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Hi Drugolf,

    alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net
    Richard
    http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet...ele-Small.html

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Hi Drugolf,

    There is no one single source where one will find everything, sniff. It would be too easy...

    You can try:

    GPA web site

    alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net

    You should be able to find some on the above two sites, maybe some on lansing heritage also.

    As for learning Win ISD I suggest you read the help files to learn how it works, you should be OK after that.

    I have a few driver databases, so if you can't find info for one driver let me know MAYBE I have it somewhere...
    Regards,

    Richard

    Gosh, I guess I thought I might have been missing a database in my initial quest, but apparently not. Like you say, I was thinking it would have been easy enough by now as a collective. Funny.

    I have been seeing info here and there as you suggest.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    If you’re looking for Altec 414 T/S parameters, I never had any luck getting them. Maybe Earl has?
    I think he did use them for a 414Z. Let's hope he sees this and chimes in as he doesn't take PM's.

  8. #8
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    WELL HERE WE GO! Home Run by more10. This should be pinned somewhere, no?

    Thanks man!

  9. #9
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    So when referring to the chart at the link below and inserting those values into the WINISD set of parameters, do we just fill in the values in the order they are shown in the chart? I know there is some magic to the order.

    EDIT: The WinISD instructions has the following:

    The suggested procedure for entering driver parameters is following (check first that "Auto calculate unknowns" option is checked):
    1. Enter Mms and Cms
    This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.
    2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re
    Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ.
    3. Enter Rms or Qms.
    Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.
    4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.
    If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.
    5. Enter number of voicecoils.
    This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.
    6. Correct Znom, if necessary.
    If there are several voicecoils, then you must be careful when entering parameters in that case, because many manufacturers give Bl in voice coils in series, because it yields double value for Bl against parallel connection. If driver manufacturer gives Qes, Bl and Cms or Mms, then you can check how Bl is specified. For that, you can enter following parameters to calculate Re: Qes, Fs, Mmsor Cms and Bl. Connection mode can be changed by changing the combobox selection. The driver editor then converts Bl and Re values accordingly.
    Equivalently, you can check for Bl by entering:
    Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Re (for desired connection mode).
    If you enter resistance for parallel connection and get about half of advertised Bl, then you know, that Bl was specified that way.
    Like in Driver-tab in project window, you'll probably noticed the driver icon in bottom of the driver editor window. you can drag the driver object into some project by just dragging the icon.

  10. #10
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    Hi,

    I'll post my clutch of collected Altec ts parameters tomorrow morning ( these I've I've collected over the years ).

    Currently I'm knackered from dealing with our latest ( on-going ) snow event.

    Anyways, be aware that these are other peoples measurements made under all sorts of unknown conditions .

    Also, TSp ends up being more of a guideline ( IME ) when tossing a woofer in a tuned box hoping for a good alignment ( especially considering the age of many of these components ).

    Remember that a box ( with a port ) has a "tuning" > add a woofer and one gets "an alignment" .

    OT, I agree that one would think there would be a large definitive library of this stuff by this point ( in the life of the internet ) but for reasons unknown Altec die-hards are typically not into measuring there stuff ( there are of course exceptions ). This used to drive Zilch nuts ( RIP ).


  11. #11
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi More 10, Thanks for posting the link you saved me from some work.

    Hi Drugolf,

    The procedure to follow for entering the T/S in Win ISD is now obsolete... One had to enter the data in a certain way in the previous Pro version otherwise it would bug...

    Now with the 2016 Edition of Win ISD Pro you don't NEED to follow a particular data entry way as in the past. In the new version I enter the T/S as they come and have not experienced any bug like it did previously.

    The help files were written for the previous version of Win ISD Pro and have remained there (still relevant) though the data entry bug was fixed in the 2016 version. So that part of the help files was not updated and is now deemed not necessary.

    One thing you should keep in mind ALL THE TIME with Win ISD Pro use: the program has a default QL 10 as box losses assumption which is too optimistic in many cases (mid size and large size boxes). The software author indicates in the help files that QL 10 is used because a good box should meet that number.

    But in real life what is a good box? Somewhat subjective, varying with persons, for some good enough is a good box! Not in this context though: it MUST be completely and absolutely sealed (except for vent hole) and air in the box MUST have NO WAY, how minuscule it may be, to escape from the enclosure. That means silicone on all joints, around the vent inside the box, around terminal connectors inside plus even on the small holes some terminal connectors have on the inside face, a GOOD gasket for each driver, etc.

    For some this seems too much work, but this is what is REQUIRED to reach a higher QL number like ten and above (meaning low loss). Removable enclosure panel requires even more air leak precautions: gasket inside AND removable caulking on the joint seen from the outside of the box. Bullock mentioned (from memory) that he cannot overemphasize the importance of chasing all possible air leak paths and plug them. He gives a number of examples to watch for. Those attributable to drivers (some offenders exist) are delicate to address without tampering with the driver, better not get involved with this, so one should rather give his 110% to those easily curable but still a pain in the neck doing...

    The standard box loss assumption in the industry is QL 7 (sort of in the middle number between QL 5 and QL 10 where most of the boxes fit under Small/Bullock) not QL 10 as in Win ISD Pro. The QL number used has an effect on box size, therefore on LF driver response and is easy to see in Win ISD Pro by varying the QL number in the software and watch LF response change.

    Since box losses tend to increase with box size, Small, Leach and Bullock seem to agree on the following: use QL 5 for large enclosures, QL 7 for mid-size ones and QL 10 for small ones. Assuming they're all good boxes.

    In the Win ISD Pro software you CAN and should change the default QL 10 according to box size you are modeling. When In box Tab, go down at bottom of screen where it shows "advanced" click on it and you will see a small window opening with three numbers: QL, QA and QP. In QL the default number 10 is there and can be changed by entering instead 5 or 7 in that box for example. You close that box and bingo, for now...

    The next project modeling defaults back to QL 10 so you have to change it EACH TIME a new project starts. Except when a particular project was saved with QL 7 for example when re-opening that project it should show QL 7 because it was saved this way. New project, new QL assessment...

    QL is the box loss figure, QA is absorption from damping material thickness used in the box, and QP represents port (vent) losses. Based on Bullock and Small, both QA and QP may be ignored (leave as default) in most cases unless something special applies: e.g. using thicker than usual glass wool in the cabinet, use of a high power driver with a too restrictive vent, etc. In practice in most cases QA and QP being so low they are considered amalgamated in the QL number as told by Bullock who refers to Small on this.

    I hope this can help you understand the enclosure losses issue which is capital for good bass and right box size. Regards,

    Richard

  12. #12
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    Excellent guys and thanks. My sister is in Wisconsin Earl so she too is getting wolloped with cold and snow.

    RMC, thanks for the info pertaining to sequence. Most threads I came across about using WINISD are pre 2016 for whatever reason. Same with the video tutorials so I have been unsure of a few things like that.

  13. #13
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    Okay, here's what I have for Altec, Altec-GPA + a couple of others that were posted by other people.

    The 414z included here is originally from ( I'm pretty sure ) a poster by the name of Vuki ( found on some forum or another > maybe here ? ).

    Many values have been interpolated ( by WinISD' auto-calculation feature ).

    Place these .wdr files into WinISD's "driver" folder, which is typically found inside the WinISD folder which is typically auto-created ( I think ) inside the "Documents" folder ( for the current Windows User. )

    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #14
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    I'd suggest you measure each 414z individually. Of the four I have, two were sort of matched, one was... nominal/useable, and one was a bit out there.
    These are really old drivers, and some age better than others.

  15. #15
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    Just so happens I was looking for 414z specs today (regarding my "Zobel for 2.5 way" thread) and found the Vuki post here in case that helps anyone.

    https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...st1396122.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Okay, here's what I have for Altec, Altec-GPA + a couple of others that were posted by other people.

    The 414z included here is originally from ( I'm pretty sure ) a poster by the name of Vuki ( found on some forum or another > maybe here ? ).

    Many values have been interpolated ( by WinISD' auto-calculation feature ).

    Place these .wdr files into WinISD's "driver" folder, which is typically found inside the WinISD folder which is typically auto-created ( I think ) inside the "Documents" folder ( for the current Windows User. )


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