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Thread: Heil with a JBL woofer

  1. #31
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Todd I didnít mean to be contrary to your request and I donít mean to infer that Rob would pull a stunt like that either.

    While a video of horseback riding or driving a sports car may be entertaining and even instructive I personally find listening to a sound system that is recorded by some other system and then rendered by still another system simply unreliable as evidence and un-immersive as an audio experience.

    Sorry to dilute the topic of this thread.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  2. #32
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I donít mean to infer that Rob would pull a stunt like that either.
    Hello Bary

    I didn't think that at all as a matter of fact that went right over my head I just figured the idea was I wouldn't do a video. Which I won't I agree with you and Widget. Well back to the thread.

    Been playing with CLIO and did a series of -40 to 40 degree measurements in 10 degree increments so not high resolution at all but still interesting. Look at whats happening at 10K! Bizarre to say the least really prominent off axis lobes then it behaves as expected. 20k the directivity just collapses to flashlight!

    Rob
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  3. #33
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    The problem is that, outside of eq, if you pull the 10+KHz peak down to a reasonable level, you pull down everything, including the trough, and you end up with a "dark cloud." (In fact, I think that this may be what a lot of people are hearing (not hearing) when they say that the ESS AMT1 lacks midrange..., a very common complaint.) The wedge takes care of this.

    The alternative (BTDT) is to use a small value inductor in series with the Heil and a by-pass resistor on the inductor, and this has been done by others too. I prefer the wedge.

  4. #34
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Toddallin

    The problem is that, outside of eq, if you pull the 10+KHz peak down to a reasonable level, you pull down everything, including the trough, and you end up with a "dark cloud."
    Yeah I agree you can't fix directivity issues with EQ or crossover mods. They are what they are just hope the lobbing isn't to audible fortunately up at 10k it may be desirable to splash the room sound more open. They are not all that high just 3db.

    (In fact, I think that this may be what a lot of people are hearing (not hearing) when they say that the ESS AMT1 lacks midrange..., a very common complaint.) The wedge takes care of this.
    Are you not using a 10" mid crossed at 5K. How does the wedge take care of it? I can see it doing something above 5k but not affecting the mid range.


    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Toddallin



    Yeah I agree you can't fix directivity issues with EQ or crossover mods. They are what they are just hope the lobbing isn't to audible fortunately up at 10k it may be desirable to splash the room sound more open. They are not all that high just 3db.



    Are you not using a 10" mid crossed at 5K. How does the wedge take care of it? I can see it doing something above 5k but not affecting the mid range.


    Rob

    The 2251J 10" actually crosses over ~2,500 Hz and peters from there. It doesn't like to go smoothly to 5KHz, or maybe even 4KHz. This is where it's dip lies before it increases in dB.

    I first tried to address this at crossover to the 10" to get it up above the Heil's dip..., and could get it pretty flat, but it cost way too many dB, especially when used with a 2241H. So we take advantage of the dip in the 10" to further the crossover's reduction.

    Then dip in the Heil would not let it meet the 10". Ergo, the problem. I then tried to address it through crossover to the Heil, but pushing it lower didn't help because I still needed to turn down the peak, and this still reduced everything it was reproducing.

  6. #36
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Widget

    Well have Steely Dan Everything Must Go Pixeleen on with my Le-14H-3 base from my Arrays and it's not too bright. I am at a disadvantage have to listen in mono to summed stereo so not ideal. It's really weird. I can walk around and hear speaker from behind and it seems like it doesn't loose the balance. As a stereo pair it should cover the whole room. Very open sounding even in mono. Now I have to build some boxes!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  7. #37
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Very cool... keep it coming!


    Widget

  8. #38
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I dug up some old boxes I had in storage 2.2 Cubic ft tuned to 28Hz and pulled out my pair of 121A's and dropped them in. Took a look at the alignment in Bass Box Pro and not ideal but not bad either. Little bit of an upgrade from 128H which would have needed a bigger box for the same F3. I forgot these things are beasts! Got both my filters built have to get then up and running tomorrow. Boxes are a bit beat up but sound and nothing a coat of paint cant fix. Can't wait to see what a stereo pair sounds like.

    Rob
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    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  9. #39
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Sounds exciting... keep us posted.
    I received some beautiful veneer and rolled it out. Will be getting back into the DYI scene soon myself!


    Widget

  10. #40
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Widget

    OK spill! What do you have up your sleeve? Your last cabinets you sold were gorgeous can't wait to see what you are working on!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  11. #41
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    No need to mess up your thread. Iíll start a new thread when the project gets started for real.


    Widget

  12. #42
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I have them up and running and after listening to them for a while I can see why people really like them. The combo with the 121A's is a real keeper. Listening to Santana Abraxis, Steeley Dan, Lumineers, Alan Parsons, Lord, Emilly Haines, Lone Below, Huntertones some Louis Armstrong and Sinatra as well.

    The highs are really clean and extended lot's of air. The image just kinda floats there and they sound very dynamic and fast. You can walk around the balance does not change, very nice I hate head in vice set-ups. Even though the polars look really directional they don't sound that way. Must be that backwave splashing the room.


    I have them bi-amped through an M552 24Db L/R at 850/900Hz or so with the notch filters on the Heils powered with a pair of crown PS 200's.

    Now I have to finish them, repaint the cabinets and permanently mount the Heil's. Do a step response check to see what the optimum distance is from the front edge of the cabinet. I purchased a pair of mounting kits and they are very nice, have everything you need and the pads tilt the drivers up about 10 degree's or so.

    Glad I got them well worth the money talk about bang for your buck! Real easy bi-amp set-up.

    Rob
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  13. #43
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Awesome! Of course those 121A woofers are about 1000% better than anything ESS ever used!
    Do you think there would be any benefit to adding a chamfer along the top front edge of the woofer cabinet?


    Widget

  14. #44
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Of course those 121A woofers are about 1000% better than anything ESS ever used!

    Widget
    I have both a 212 Ultrabass and ESS bookshelves (10 inchers) . Havn't opened the UB to verify that it's a 121a, but have refoamed the ESS driver. It's a high quality alloy casting and I have no disappointments with it.
    The UB was never spectacular, tho the veneer was great. So when I read the above statement, my eyes rolled.

    Actually I'd prefer whatever 12 was in the L7's

    An LHF member bud of mine (now deceased) relayed the story of how..in the 70's ESS took their AMT 10b speakers and JBL L-100's to college campuses on a tour. They disguised the boxes and did blind sampling. The result was that the larger box, smaller LF ESS's were preferred generally (but not 1000% more)
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  15. #45
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    The highs are really clean and extended lot's of air. The image just kinda floats there and they sound very dynamic and fast. You can walk around the balance does not change, very nice I hate head in vice set-ups. Even though the polars look really directional they don't sound that way. Must be that backwave splashing the room.
    Rob
    I have the same experience with my AMT's, but they are sealed on the baffle front, so, at least in my case a backwave doesn't seem to be in the formula.

    It may be interesting .... I have 2 pairs of ESS AMT10b's , but they are different. One is ported and the other isn't, tho it has a rear 10 inch PR. I havn't been able to hear any difference between them.
    Nights of winter turn me cold,fears of dying, getting old.
    We ran the race, the race was won ..by running slowly

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