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Thread: Heil with a JBL woofer

  1. #61
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I am driving them directly from the amp. I haven't found any impedance plots online.

    I googled for Heil AMT FR plots and some of them do exhibit roll off but some don't. very strange.

    Hello

    I will attach a plot. The light grey is the raw driver the black is with a notch filter and some resistors to bring it up to 8 ohms average. They have had several versions of the diaphragm over time so depending on when the measurements were taken and what diaphragm you get different plots.

    Rob
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  2. #62
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    I just ordered a pair

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallacefl View Post
    Anyone ever copy/replicate the crossover Dennis Murphy for a custom pair of Salk speakers?
    I believe it was at about 1600 hz.

    I just ordered a pair. I will try Dennis's crossover, but before I do, I want to make sure my raw measurements are consistent with his raw measurements.

    For those at that are curious, see attachments for Dennis's speaker. The woofer utilized was an 8" Vistaton AL200 (about $135/each at mouser).
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  3. #63
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Rob you must have an anechoic chamber at home coz I can never get measurement as smooth as your at my room.

    Here are mine. They are active DSPed together so I was able to do tweak it some more last night, starting from mostly scratch. I did a better job than last time around. Crossover is LR 24db @ 1200Hz. The result was quite enjoyable and I spent the rest of the evening listening instead of messing around with it.

    I don't have the 7kHz notch, but the measurement isn't smooth in general.

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    The overall is not bad. LR 24db/oct @ 1200Hz.

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    I like how fast and uniform the Heil decays. But I am more impressed that the 2216ND1 kept up with it all the way down to 100Hz before starting to look messy!

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    I don't understand how the sum is lower at the crossover point then the individual ones. LR 24db/oct @ 1200Hz. Is it a phase issue?

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  4. #64
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    Gate Measurement

    Jmpsmash,

    Have you tried gating your measurements? Your measurements seem to include the room response.

    You can look at the Impluse Response to see when the first reflection arises, and then gate your measurements just immediately prior to the first reflection.

    If the above doesn't make sense, for now try (after you take measurement from say 1 meter) - Tools --> IR Window --> Right Window (ms): 3

    See what that does. You will lose low frequency resolution, but you should still be able to see what the AMTs are doing.

  5. #65
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Jmpsmash

    You might want to try the 5K notch. Especially with DSP its a simple low Q notch. That would smooth out the top a bit and with your crossover at 1.2K you could just tweek the level on the Heil up a bit. My raw overall measurement looks pretty similar to yours and the one in the German article.

    I don't have the 7kHz notch, but the measurement isn't smooth in general.
    Yeah thats weird I thought it was a measurement artifact but no matter where I measured it wouldn't go away.

    Rob
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  6. #66
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello dkalsi

    I just ordered a pair. I will try Dennis's crossover, but before I do, I want to make sure my raw measurements are consistent with his raw measurements.
    Nice think you are going to like them. How old is that design?? Your measurements may not, you won't know till you power them up with the different versions around. Either way they are easy to work with compared to doing compression driver compensations with horns! Please post you measurements and build!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  7. #67
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkalsi View Post
    Jmpsmash,

    Have you tried gating your measurements? Your measurements seem to include the room response.

    You can look at the Impluse Response to see when the first reflection arises, and then gate your measurements just immediately prior to the first reflection.

    If the above doesn't make sense, for now try (after you take measurement from say 1 meter) - Tools --> IR Window --> Right Window (ms): 3

    See what that does. You will lose low frequency resolution, but you should still be able to see what the AMTs are doing.
    Yes I did and it made little difference. Some wiggles here and there but overall shape of the response remains mostly the same.

  8. #68
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Jmpsmash

    You might want to try the 5K notch. Especially with DSP its a simple low Q notch. That would smooth out the top a bit and with your crossover at 1.2K you could just tweek the level on the Heil up a bit. My raw overall measurement looks pretty similar to yours and the one in the German article.



    Yeah thats weird I thought it was a measurement artifact but no matter where I measured it wouldn't go away.

    Rob
    Let me try that. I will also try to play around with the placement. Right now the Heil is sitting on the (not connected) JBL 2397. I will try to remove that heavy thing and measure again. That should knock off a few bumps on the FR. I also wonder if putting the Heil on a stand, a few inch tall to minimize interaction with the top of the cabinet, will help.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello dkalsi

    Nice think you are going to like them. How old is that design?? Your measurements may not, you won't know till you power them up with the different versions around. Either way they are easy to work with compared to doing compression driver compensations with horns! Please post you measurements and build!

    Rob

    Rob - I believe that design was from early 2011.

    I really doubt my driver measurements will match Dennis's.

    I must say you got your hands on a pretty decent pair. While there may be response variances year to year, I sure hope there is (little-to) no variance between the two pieces I receive.

    I'm getting anxious waiting for them to ship. Apparently, while the keep all parts on hands, they don't assemble the units and QC test until orders/payments are received. I placed my order this part Saturday --> they are not expected to ship out until tomorrow.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmpsmash View Post
    Let me try that. I will also try to play around with the placement. Right now the Heil is sitting on the (not connected) JBL 2397. I will try to remove that heavy thing and measure again. That should knock off a few bumps on the FR. I also wonder if putting the Heil on a stand, a few inch tall to minimize interaction with the top of the cabinet, will help.

    Measure your Heil on axis from a foot away using a test mic with it's calibration file loaded.

    All those caveats/conditions will change the response that you are currently showing.


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkalsi View Post
    I just ordered a pair. I will try Dennis's crossover, but before I do, I want to make sure my raw measurements are consistent with his raw measurements.

    For those at that are curious, see attachments for Dennis's speaker. The woofer utilized was an 8" Vistaton AL200 (about $135/each at mouser).

    Not what mine looks like.

    I use mine as a tweeter. This is the crossover, thought there have been changes to the mid.





    This is the spectrum in the room at 1 meter on axis without my wedgie.



    And here it is with my wedgie. Note that it is 2.5 dB between sets of horzontal lines. (And they said I was mad! )


  12. #72
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Measure your Heil on axis from a foot away using a test mic with it's calibration file loaded.

    All those caveats/conditions will change the response that you are currently showing.

    True. But a bit academic as I am not wearing them as headphones.

  13. #73
    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    This Heil AMT has been quite enjoyable.

    The character is different than a compression driver horn. On the plus side, it is quite dynamic and fast (though not as fast as compression horn). The really good part is that being a dipole it has great sense of space and airiness. It is also a bit less harsh, so less listening fatique even at higher volume. With horn, even with the 2397 which is supposed to be less "horn" like, I still cannot listen for hours without rest.

    However, as mention, it is not as dynamic, esp microdynamic. Less detail. It also image slightly worse. instrument position is not as clear.

  14. #74
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    Based on extrapolating the following info ( of three different "on & off" axis measurements ) I would guess that your measurement axis was " down/up & away ". ( Maybe 30deg-H x 15deg-V ) ??

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkalsi View Post
    I just ordered a pair. I will try Dennis's crossover, but before I do, I want to make sure my raw measurements are consistent with his raw measurements.

    For those at that are curious, see attachments for Dennis's speaker. The woofer utilized was an 8" Vistaton AL200 (about $135/each at mouser).
    Hi Dhar,

    I have to imagine that those measurements from Dennis were from an earlier generation of large Heils.

    Here's a comparison of Rob's measurements with those of Hobby HiFi ( I slightly shifted the FR of the Hobby HiFi trace to lineup the 5K bump ) to compare the general shape of the curve.

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    Above 3K, I would say one would have a real challenge hearing any difference.


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