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Thread: Revisiting "Imaging"

  1. #46
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    Marco, I would suggest that dog bark was placed in the recording using phase tricks. This can be heard on many studio recordings where guitars and such are diffusely heard outside the speakers. We've been talking about live unamplified performances recorded in an acoustic space, and trying to recreate that space at home.

    Ian, thanks for the links. It is a good discussion.

  2. #47
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    There is a doco on that album

    It was all experimental with a lot of improvisation

  3. #48
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    Bless the Google, I know what a doco is now.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Interesting discussion in the comments section of that page.

    Mr. Ethan Winer said:
    "Imaging has nothing to do with distance to the front wall unless you have dipole type speakers like Magnepans etc. Imaging is about mid and high frequencies, and normal "box" and tower type speakers send those frequencies forward, away from the front wall. The side wall distance could affect imaging, but only if the absorption isn't effective enough. I've seen people use diffusion at side-wall reflection points, and that too would affect imaging versus distance. Though IMO a normal width room should not have diffusion there because it's not as effective as absorption."

    Based on my own experience, I would tend to agree - especially if the speakers have directional mid-highs (as is the case when using waveguides/horns).

    Marco.

  5. #50
    Member marco_gea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Marco, I would suggest that dog bark was placed in the recording using phase tricks. This can be heard on many studio recordings where guitars and such are diffusely heard outside the speakers. We've been talking about live unamplified performances recorded in an acoustic space, and trying to recreate that space at home.
    True. Fair enough.

    But I could also quote other recordings that lead me to draw the same conclusions.

    For instance, I have a recording of the first movement of Saint-Saens' Symphony n.3 in C minor (the one for orchestra and organ) which - when played back on my system (which, again, is not strictly soffit mounted, but in which the speakers are right up against the front wall) gives an uncanny impression of depth, with the front wall virtually disappearing and the listening room appearing much deeper and wider than it really is.

    Unfortunately, I obtained this rather spectacular recording as part of a CD-R mix used by an audio manufacturer as their "demo CD", and I haven't been able to find out the label under which it was originally released :-(
    But I am quite sure that it is most definitely not a processed recording where the recording or mixing engineer used "phase tricks" like the ones used on the Roger Waters album.

    Fundamentally, I think the issue at play is that there are two factors that contribute to the impression of depth and width: (1) the recording venue reflections and low-level reverberation captured in the recording itself, and (2) the listening room reflections.

    Some people (including myself) prefer a listening experience where - at the listening position - the direct sound from the loudspeakers is louder than that from the reflected sound from the listening room. In other words, we like to listen at D < Dc (where Dc = "critical distance"). This is only feasible if using fairly directional speakers (e.g., DI > 8 - 10 in the mid-high frequencies) in rooms that are not too "lively". In these conditions, the depth cues in the recording (1) dominate over the listening room reflections (2).

    Other people enjoy the additional (but I would also argue, "fake" - in the sense that it is extraneous to the original recording venue acoustics) "ambience" given by raising the level of the room reflections (2). This is accomplished by using low-DI speakers in lively rooms and listening in the far field (D > Dc). An extreme example of this type of listening experience is given by the use of MBL omnis in large, sparsely furnished and marble-floor rooms.

    In the end, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy music. To each their own.

  6. #51
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    If phase tricks can make a dog sound like it's barking from far away, then they must be replicating the phase events that occur naturally when a dog barks from far away and their use would not moot the subjective effect of a dog barking from far away when discerned with soffit mounted speakers and would not disprove anybody's notion that soffit mounted speakers can present stage depth.

    I do think there are acoustic effects of setting speakers out from the front wall similar to the acoustic effects of omnidirectional speakers and both effects can contribute to a vague sense of stage depth or spaciousness. (Absolutely, Mr. Bose). However, it is a phenomenon of monstrous complexity interfacing with the effects of mike placement in relation to the sound sources and room features in the recording environment as they appear in the recorded matter and has only begun to be explored by such people as Linkwitz and Duke LeJeune at Audiokinesis and probably many others I don't know about.

    There are two overriding considerations which limit my concern about these kinds of psychoacoustic phenomena. The first is that unless the recording setup and the speaker setup are done to serve each other there will never be more than about one and half dozen recordings which accidentally achieve mastery of the complexities. The other is that number one means the issues debated in the late fifties early sixties between monaural devotees and advocates for the enthralling though imperfect complexities of stereo have never been resolved. Coupling this with the fact that there is no stereo effect in a concert all, especially not in the seats I can usually afford, means there is a good chance that for most people music would be at least equally accessible with good monaural recordings played over one good speaker. Maybe the reason Bose is so hated among mainstream and boutique audio professionals is that he identified and made a fortune marketing the one third rate psychoacoustic effect every stereo buyer is guaranteed to get.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post

    ....Based on my own experience, I would tend to agree - especially if the speakers have directional mid-highs (as is the case when using waveguides/horns).

    Marco.[/COLOR]
    I have to agree with you about the horns, but Mr Winer went a little far saying you have to have planars to introduce front wall reflections. Quality box speakers with low cabinet diffraction and a bipole tweeter or piezo ribbon tweeter have excellent directivity.

    I have large format monitors and can create a very deep and wide soundstage, but it is limited. I can't get imaging behind the speaker cabinets themselves or beyond their width (without phase anomalies). It's a limitation of the speakers, not a complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
    ....In the end, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy music. To each their own.
    Absolutely. I'm not flaming horn speakers. I'd like to hear the 1400 Arrays sometime.

  8. #53
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    Amused to Death used QSound Also one of my favorite set-up disks!

    http://www.qsound.com/

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    I have large format monitors and can create a very deep and wide soundstage, but it is limited. I can't get imaging behind the speaker cabinets themselves or beyond their width (without phase anomalies). It's a limitation of the speakers, not a complaint.
    OK - please do not take it the wrong way, but may I respectfully ask which large format monitors?
    My suspicion is that the limitation resides mostly with their crossover, and not with their being large format, or soffit mounted...

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    If phase tricks can make a dog sound like it's barking from far away, then they must be replicating the phase events that occur naturally when a dog barks from far away and their use would not moot the subjective effect of a dog barking from far away when discerned with soffit mounted speakers and would not disprove anybody's notion that soffit mounted speakers can present stage depth.

    I do think there are acoustic effects of setting speakers out from the front wall similar to the acoustic effects of omnidirectional speakers and both effects can contribute to a vague sense of stage depth or spaciousness. However, it is a phenomenon of monstrous complexity interfacing with the effects of mike placement in the recording environment as they appear in the recorded matter and has only begun to be explored by such people as whatsisname at Audiokinesis.
    +1

  11. #56
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    If there is any desire to have a setup/listening CD that eliminates artificial process-induced variables, try an MA Recordings disc. I have a bunch of them because I like the music but their being the highest fidelity (to the original performance) recordings I know of doesn't hurt.

    It is a one-man label and Todd always records the same way. Acoustic performances in a live space, usually a hall or old church, so far no more than about eight musicians, two spectacular quality microphones fixed on a bar in the illustrated position or similar. Microphone preamp is a battery powered FET custom; cables directly to a digital recorder (currently a double DSD unit). No board, no mixing, no processing, and no editing. He monitors using Stax headphones. (Stax gave him the Omega prototype, he is well connected in the audiio world. Trust Todd's ears, everyone else does.) The purity of this process is not surprising; he lived in Japan for twenty-five years and you know their take on how things should be done. In any case, each recording has a good dose of reflections to work with, as well as a crystalline presentation of the instruments and voices.

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    Notice that he found the best location for this Fortepiano in this Paris performance hall, and it was not the stage.
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    If phase tricks can make a dog sound like it's barking from far away, then they must be replicating the phase events that occur naturally when a dog barks from far away and their use would not moot the subjective effect of a dog barking from far away when discerned with soffit mounted speakers and would not disprove anybody's notion that soffit mounted speakers can present stage depth.....
    Dave, I'm not implying that horns can't show depth, quite the contrary. The dog was recorded at a distance, however there is clearly a phase shift applied to it's insertion in the mix for effect, imho so it wasn't a good example of what Marco was getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    ....I do think there are acoustic effects of setting speakers out from the front wall similar to the acoustic effects of omnidirectional speakers and both effects can contribute to a vague sense of stage depth or spaciousness. However, it is a phenomenon of monstrous complexity interfacing with the effects of mike placement in relation to the sound sources and room features in the recording environment as they appear in the recorded matter and has only begun to be explored by such people as Linkwitz and Duke LeJeune at Audiokinesis and probably many others I don't know about....
    Well implemented I don't consider the effect vague, but rather surprisingly realistic. I agree with the rest of your statement, it is quite complex. I find it fascinating.

    Quote Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
    OK - please do not take it the wrong way, but may I respectfully ask which large format monitors?
    My suspicion is that the limitation resides mostly with their crossover, and not with their being large format, or soffit mounted...
    UREI 813C and 2245 subs. I won't be convinced easily that crossover changes would remedy the situation. The drivers are highly directive and not currently being soffit mounted makes for awful cabinet diffraction. I've heard numerous horn loaded speakers in normal sized home listening rooms and studios, and none can create the realism in imaging and imaging specificity as some of these more modern designs we've touched on. I haven't experienced it yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47 View Post
    If there is any desire to have a setup/listening CD that eliminates artificial process-induced variables, try an MA Recordings disc. I have a bunch of them because I like the music but their being the highest fidelity (to the original performance) recordings I know of doesn't hurt.....
    I continue to be appreciative of your introducing me to these recordings

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
    Interesting discussion in the comments section of that page.

    Mr. Ethan Winer said:
    "Imaging has nothing to do with distance to the front wall unless you have dipole type speakers like Magnepans etc. Imaging is about mid and high frequencies, and normal "box" and tower type speakers send those frequencies forward, away from the front wall. The side wall distance could affect imaging, but only if the absorption isn't effective enough. I've seen people use diffusion at side-wall reflection points, and that too would affect imaging versus distance. Though IMO a normal width room should not have diffusion there because it's not as effective as absorption."

    Based on my own experience, I would tend to agree - especially if the speakers have directional mid-highs (as is the case when using waveguides/horns).

    Marco.

    I think it’s logical when the speaker is toed in significantly or placed in the corners.

    The sound can bounce at say 45-60 degrees diagonal from the front baffles off the front wall back towards the listener.

    By either toe in or placement in the corners you modify the Hass effect

    http://www.musicproductionglossary.c...s-haas-effect/

    Obviously constant directivity or controlled directivity loudspeakers using wave guides can use these effects to advantage in creating a stereo image. Jbl has utilised this aspect of design since the introduction of Keeles Bi radial horn (2344a) and was later exploited in the 9500, 9800 and the a Everest systems.

    Whereas the direct radiator systems or multi way systems using horns and cone drivers with un even polar response the effect is far less predictable or controlled.

    Hence obtaining the sweet spot in blending the direct versus reflected sound with example the 4333-4343-4344 and 4345 is more difficult. They are significantly more complex than a two way woofer- wave guide design and there require a more stringent approach to adjustment much like a Ferrari. But setup carefully they bring out the best sonic virtues of each driver. The effect of hearing a snare drum on Miles Davis Kind of Blue vinyl album via a 2123H mid cone driver demonstrates it’s all about the drivers capacity to plant the snare not just as an image location in space but with realistic intensity and spatial clarity.

    My point here is l believe a sufficiently good driver can create the same emotional engagement as a live instruument.
    I do not believe magical trickery in the mix should be relied upon to hold the listeners interest. The logic being at the live event its the emotional connection with how an instrument is played that creates the interest and arousal of the senses.

    On a DVD of a live musical event the optics connect with the auditory senses and localisation is complete. So how important is imaging?

    I am not raining on the imaging parade but pointing out there the foundation of any attempt at imaging is the drivers.

    Trying to find a woofer and a wave guide- compression driver to perform a miracle on paper won’t always bring home the prize.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post

    My point here is l believe a sufficiently good driver can create the same emotional engagement as a live instruument.
    I do not believe magical trickery in the mix should be relied upon to hold the listeners interest. The logic being at the live event its the emotional connection with how an instrument is played that creates the interest and arousal of the senses.

    On a DVD of a live musical event the optics connect with the auditory senses and localisation is complete. So how important is imaging?

    .
    I have been resisting reiterating my long ago thoughts about how over-fixated present-day listeners are with imaging and soundstage. I still won't, but encouraged by your remarks I will quote from that Omega speaker review I linked to. "One important thing to keep in mind, however, is that effects such as 'soundstage' and 'stereo imaging' are fun aspects of two-channel audio, but are unnecessary to the enjoyment of music."

    Listen to a good single speaker mono system and close your eyes. There is an INCREDIBLE amount of spatial information in a single microphone recording. I'd say stereo added ten percent at most to the experience. If that sounds unlikely, imagine a listener who is deaf in one ear in a symphony - or any other - hall listening to a performance. What are they missing? Very, very little if anything. They still have a full and exact sense of further and closer, and of room reflections.
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
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  15. #60
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    Great discussion on imaging!

    This is a fun test to try if you can: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php Btw, audiocheck is a great site period.

    Having worked in numerous studios, some with properly set up room acoustics and monitoring using guidelines from EBU and ITU. it really helps to set up ones speakers in an equilateral triangle to best decode what was encoded at the studio, as that is the standard "stereo" configuration. Of course there are specs for early reflections/modal decay time/RT60, etc. that for sure have an influence.

    Given the wavelengths involved some may go to lengths of trying to obtain a mirror image so the speakers/monitors are identical distance to the listener and each speaker from the front and side walls... Some of us use laser distance measurers to get the tolerances down to an 1/8th of an inch.

    Some also use speaker and digital room correction to ensure the left and right frequency and timing response is as identical as possible like in the following measurements:

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    Having achieved that, then one is listening or decoding the stereo image as best as possible. I personally believe that speaker time alignment helps out as well. At this stage of setup, and taking into account time alignment, I would say it does not matter what the speakers/monitors are...

    What does it sound like? Well, if one is playing a mono signal, it should sound like that it is coming from a point source positioned dead center in the phantom image at head height. Some folks say it feels like the sound is coming from inside the center of one's head. If you can achieve this, then one is pretty much guaranteed to be accurately reproducing whatever is stored on the media, whether analog or digital.

    Listening to the LEDR recording with above configuration is accurately reproduced and fun to hear. I hope folks can listen to the LEDR recording.

    For those interested in how the art is created, especially from a stereo imaging perspective, this is a great way to visualise it:
    The Art of Mixing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjOdqZFvhY

    Hope everyone is having a wonderful Friday!

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