Hi Clark,
Thank you for the quote.
Many years ago l recall hearing the top model Dunlavy loudspeaker which was a well regarded for its imaging.
Below is a link to a review which l think fleshes out the topic nicely with all the why’s and wherefore’s.
https://www.stereophile.com/floorlou...un4/index.html
Thank you, Ian. Nice link.Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
To assert that the spatial presentation of a system is worth nothing, or of little value, if the sonic fidelity is poor should be a given. But even in ponderous tomes of audiophile reviews like this example, it is rarely said or even implied. Quite refreshing to encounter.
The review was also unusual in giving us a break from the (usually) endless examples of obscure snippets from the reviewer's vinyl collection; much of the observations were based on test discs, which are less subjective and more quantifiable, and relatable when addressing spatial and frequency phenomenon.
Recognizing the calculus of accuracy versus being forgiving of normally encountered recording shortcomings was also nicely presented. My Stax 007 headphones are as revealing as it gets but they do have a slight frequency reproduction anomaly which renders them completely forgiving. When playing anything short of MA Recordings discs, it is needed to keep the whole experience wonderful every time.
Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears
I'm in love with a lot of Australian slang. I think my favorites are Hoons, chancer, and Shiela. (Hoodlums, a highly opportunistic person, and a pretty woman or any woman.)
Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears
Hey Mitch, Thanks for the interesting links.
I did download the LEDR test files and tried them on my (designed for home) listening system (not my UREIs) and they sound just as they should. The up/down and behind the speaker L/R pan tracks are completely free of the loudspeakers (no sense the sound is coming from them). These tracks used with others like the Mapping the Soundstage track mentioned earlier can be very informative and help set-up of a home system. I actually made a small adjustment (about 2") to my speakers placement while listening to the LEDR tracks, and it improved focus of the soundstage reproduction of the Stereophile track and also live recorded music. Well done.
For anyone who has been following this thread and isn't really clear about what they should be listening for, the above mentioned test tracks may help in setting up your speakers (within their limitations) to provide a better soundstage, along with all the other necessities mentioned earlier.
I'm still working my way through the videos, but thought it interesting the narrator made the point early on that his soffit mounted monitors can't reproduce an image wider than the speakers themselves, or higher (without manipulation), only lower than the speakers, because of the low frequency energy exciting the floor, as that has been part of this discussion. He did not mention whether they can image behind the cabinets, but I think it's safe to say not, only that he can create (or reproduce) a deep image between them.
Hi Jim,
Cool! The LEDR track is hard to reproduce properly, so kudos on getting your setup to work well with it. In addition to the LEDR test, there are a few more from audiocheck.net that are interesting: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotest...honicsound.php
I liked this example as well: http://buschmeier.org/bh/study/soundperception/
When I was still recording and mixing, we used the Haas effect to give mono recorded vocals and instruments some width and depth, in addition to delay and reverb. It has an interesting effect. You can hear it (over headphones) in this music production demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQOk...ature=youtu.be
While I enjoy large format studio monitors, I was not a big fan of soffit mounts in the control room. While the bass response is much improved, it was just weird looking up at the stereo image...
All good fun!
Cheers,
Mitch
Thanks Mitch, I'll check out those other test files as well.
Your YouTube link appears to be the same fellow Ian pointed us to in post #58 demonstrating the Haas Effect by adding time delay while mixing.
Jim, cool! I hope you enjoy those. And yes it is indeed the same person Ian pointed out in his post. Great minds think alike...?Cheers!
I was thinking about starting a new thread as a way to move a divergent discussion from this thread (https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...791#post446791) about UREIs when I remembered Mr Widget started this thread for the same reason several years ago. It's worth a re-read.
Phil, As mentioned in the first couple posts of this thread there are some divergent ideas of the definition of imaging vs soundstage. The image is of course the phantom image created between the loudspeakers and in audiophile circles, part of the soundstage. In most studio and typical home listening situations the image is between the two speakers and on plane with the two speakers. Voices and instruments can be specifically placed or heard anywhere in that image area or simply massed together without specificity in the image.Odd that this discussion comes up now. My wife made her way to the basement workshop last night and sat in the listening chair while I was playing the Kind Of Blue Deluxe 50th Anniversary Collector's Edition and the first thing she asked was if all four pairs were playing, when in fact the only ones playing were the 250ti on the ends. Then she commented on how distinct each individual instrument was and how everything was placed so well across the room. She doesn't know the term "soundstage" but she certainly gets it. Not sure why it would take a 2-way with a wave-guide to improve this but I'm pretty pleased with the way the massive 4-way pyramid does it—without a modern wave-guide. At one point I toyed with getting a 1400 Array. Maybe that needs to be my next acquisition just to see what it can do. At the time I got sidetracked by the 4345 for the same money.
In audiophile circles the soundstage is the re-creation of a live recorded event in an acoustic space usually made with two or three microphones. When played back on speakers designed to re-create the performance in a room that can support it, the image moves from between the speakers and on plane with them to behind the speakers and expanding to the width of the room and with depth that can appear to be 30 or 40 feet deep. Also, there will be absolutely no sound audible coming from the speakers, all of the sound seeming to come from the soundstage behind them. Speakers that image well (studio recordings) will not usually re-create the natural soundstage from a live recording, and speakers that re-create the soundstage well will still create the center image between the speakers (studio recordings) but usually not as well focused as the former.
Speakers with well controlled directivity as Mr Widget described in the UREI thread image well. Speakers with wide and matched dispersion at crossover points tend to re-create the soundstage well because of their almost omnidirectional dispersion. What comes into play for the latter type is the listening room. Careful treatment is needed to not have early arrival reflections, but rather late arrival of reflections primarily through diffusion of the reflections rather than absorption of the reflections as in the studio setting. What all this is getting to is your 250ti are more of the wide dispersion type and the speakers Mr Widget is using (as am I) are the controlled directivity type.
Here's a link to a video of the speaker I'm currently using where the builder demonstrates the same drivers in the same box, the only difference being the baffle. One controlled directivity and one wide dispersion. Note the horizontal polar plots he shows of the two side by side a few minutes in. The speaker on the left could be set up in an appropriate room to create a larger soundstage than the speaker on the right, though the one on the right will overcome many typical room problems and fit into a much wider variety of rooms better (the reason I'm using them) and provide spot on imaging (between the speakers).
https://youtu.be/f6S2V9D9_08?feature=shared
I haven't experimented with 250tis but if you have time and interest, that large space you're in might show you what their potential for creating a large soundstage is. Read up on the Cardas rule of thirds technique for set up and experiment. Experiencing that large, deep soundstage without the ability to tell where the sound is coming from can draw you into a performance like nothing else. It is hard to achieve though. If you're traveling through the DC area in retirement I have a few friends who have achieved it with their systems who would be happy to have you for a visit.
Thanks for posting this here. I had completely forgotten about my posts and this thread.
For me personally it is interesting to see how my viewpoint has evolved over time as I have had more experiences in different rooms and with different systems. I would say I still agree with much that I posted earlier in this thread, but I have learned a lot over the last 5 plus years and not everything I believed then do I still have confidence in. (It would be interesting and probably cringe worthy to go back and read some of my posts from 20 years ago.)
Along those lines, in my initial post on this thread I elaborate on the electronics suggesting that they are potentially significant in the imaging of the system. My current understanding is that the electronics will have minimal if any effect. I should have spent more time discussing the room and layout.
Regarding Phil's comments on the imaging/soundstage of the 250Tis his description is more in line with how my Project Widgets portray music including Kind Of Blue. As a reminder: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...Project-Widget
These speakers create a deep and wide image/soundstage. The TAD TH4003 horns have controlled dispersion that is very tight vertically and fairly tight horizontally and below them there is a fairly flat profiled 10" driver covering most of the rest of the spectrum. These speakers place images across the space between the speakers and even beyond. (my current understanding is that this is a function of reflections from the side walls) The image is stable and layered, but it is also more diffuse when compared to the 1400 Arrays that had previously been set up in similar locations in the same room. The compact Meyer Sound "point source" speakers as deployed in my HT are a significant step further in this regard. In that system (room and speaker position within the room) certain recordings sound like a surround sound recording and a center panned source is completely detached from the left and right speakers. My DIY TADs have a more defined image than say my previous Everests did, but that could be the room as much as the speakers. As I have gained experience, I have learned more and more how important the room and placement within the room truly is. I had previously compared the same 1400 Arrays with the Everests in my old listening room and there too the 1400 Arrays had a more focused image than the Everests so there is a consistency there.
So then, how important is imaging? I enjoy the heck out of both of my systems... one super focused and one fairly diffuse. I have never heard a live performance that sounded anything like audiophile imaging, but it is fun. Then again, a well recorded live recording played back through the more diffuse TAD system sounds pretty darned close to a live experience.
Widget
Can we just re-name this whole group The Slippery Slope?
Or the whole hobby.
Fun, but I had to take a break to work on a car today. Hopefully finished soon in time to take my wife to a live Jazz performance this evening so we can compare.
https://robertjospe.com/2024/02/char...eat-roadhouse/
The leader is a friend and, after many years of preaching, also a customer. His first BMW and he's had it now for over 5-years and has enjoyed his travels all over the country more than ever before!
". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers
Hello Rusty
Thanks for revisiting this. Interesting how people define Soundstage and imaging. I guess I have my own definition based on my own experiences. To me soundstage is the sound field created by the speakers and imaging is what happens within it.
I don't see a pair for speakers doing true envelopment. I see that as a multichannel experience not stereo. Even with a good multichannel set-up as close as it can sometimes sound it is clearly artificial,
I look at Live music and stereo/multichannel as two independent and separate pursuits. They are not alike and don't sound that way. Al least to me although I thoroughly enjoy both.
I am a CD advocate and most of my systems are CD.
I have seen repeated so many times that horns and waveguides don't image as well as cones and domes and find that to be decidedly false. To me this all comes from the older classic horn systems
Nice speakers!
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
Rob, I've not heard that trope when it comes to imaging as I just described how we use the term amongst our group of friends, but rather their poor soundstaging abilities based on how we use that term as I just described it. Most of my listening friends are non-horn audiophiles who listen primarily to classical live recordings. That huge soundstage laid out behind the speakers is really important to their experience and they're using wide dispersion speakers in dedicated rooms following the rule of thirds mentioned before. Horn speakers with good controlled directivity image great!.....I have seen repeated so many times that horns and waveguides don't image as well as cones and domes and find that to be decidedly false. To me this all comes from the older classic horn systems
Nice speakers!
Rob
I think they would say you can't have a soundstage without an image but if the image is just between the speakers that's not a good soundstage. Don't know if that makes sense to everybody?
That makes sense to me and appearing to going out beyond the edge of the speaker pair and sensing depth as opposed to "flat". You also have stability where the "image" doesn't shift as your head moves or sit stand.
A simple example vocals up front band behind for depth or at least drums behind. For a large orchestral piece the choir would be behind the orchestra and a vocal soloist up front.
That make sense??
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
Did you ever try this out? It would be a very useful experiment to see how a speaker's imaging/soundstage changes when the room is removed.
Widget
Hello Widget
I have had a stereo pair outside and the sound is much more like separate sources. I also have a stereo pair installed on edges of my shed with a subwoofer inside. They will image if you are between them but the sound field isn't anywhere near as cohesive as it is indoors.
As you add distance it becomes more wall of sound. There is no sense of envelopment that I can hear. These are relatively low cost outdoor speakers. 6" drivers 1" tweeter. They sound really good but different compared to indoors IMHO.
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
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