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  1. #1
    Senior Member pyonc's Avatar
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    sound quality varies with carpet or hardwood?

    Hi friends,

    Currently my big vintage JBL speakers are sitting on the carpet in the basement, and I hear pretty good bass.
    Do you hear better (or worse) sound from your speakers on the carpet or the hardwood or even concrete floor?
    Some say better sound from the carpet, with the sound directly from the front channels, not sound waves bouncing off the floor.
    but others say the wood floor gives more warmth to the sound and livens it up.
    I know various factors affect the speaker sound, but looks like the carpet, hardwood or even concrete floor must be one of them.
    Any comment or actual experience on the difference?

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    Greetings from the Left Coast, My experience is to use the Rug. I'm using 4410's raised so the HF is 40" above a hard wood floor, covered by a 6x9 rug. But in the realm of home audio, it is users choice, as there are lots of variables here. Also get a copy of Floyd Toole's book. It will help take the mystery out of some stuff.

    And always have fun.

    Ed
    KEEP ON LISTENING!

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    Senior Member pyonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Kreamer View Post
    Greetings from the Left Coast, My experience is to use the Rug. I'm using 4410's raised so the HF is 40" above a hard wood floor, covered by a 6x9 rug. But in the realm of home audio, it is users choice, as there are lots of variables here. Also get a copy of Floyd Toole's book. It will help take the mystery out of some stuff.

    And always have fun.

    Ed
    Thanks for your feedback. Yes, rug on the hardwood floor, in your case. I was thinking of putting some wood boards on the carpet spot where the speakers are sitting, but when I looked at the bottom of speakers, I noticed some factory stand-out veneers beneath them , so I think that's enough for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyonc View Post
    Thanks for your feedback. Yes, rug on the hardwood floor, in your case. I was thinking of putting some wood boards on the carpet spot where the speakers are sitting, but when I looked at the bottom of speakers, I noticed some factory stand-out veneers beneath them , so I think that's enough for now.
    Carpet and or rugs are good floor treatments, but the reason it won't work as wall treatment in home-brew studios, much to the chagrin of those who have tried it, is its very pronounced inconsistency of reflection/absortion with varying frequencies. Exactly how do don't want in a controlled sonic environment. And it often starts a mysterious journey and taxing tailspin when trying to correct something and you don't know what is source of the trouble.

    Same with cork. And egg cartons. Egg cartons may resemble the looks of Sonex and other real treatments, but it ain't Sonex, etc.

    Regards, D_E
    "Why don't you Mine your own Bismuth, so you won't be mining mine?"

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    Doctor_Electron is absolutly right, carpet is usually unsuitable as an acoustic treatment.
    What you want is an even absorption througout the entire freqeuncy-range.
    But carpet is only absorbing the high-frequencies. Even the thickest carpet doesn´t absorb much below ~5khz, usually only above ~10khz.

    In most cases the carpet covers all of the floor, that can be almost 1/3 of the total surface area of a room. What happens in these rooms is massive absorbtion in the high-frequencies, but no absorption in the mids and lows.
    This yields to a overdamped and lifeless e.g. dead sounding room. I always try to avoid this.

    Besides the carpet, an average living room has allready enough absorption and diffusion in the high frequencies caused by furniture. As I said, it is very easy to overdamp the highs. It makes much more sense to use absorbers that work in the mids and lows. Some porous absorbers for the mid-band positioned at the first-reflection points and some decent bass-traps in the corners..

    Another drawback of carpet is the soft placement of the speakers.
    What you want is a solid base, so the speakers should be directly coupled to a hard floor or some decent mass (stone slab etc..). This delivers best dynamics in bass-attack.

    If you want to use a rug in your room, I wouldn´t see a problem unless you place your speakers on them. But the overall surface-area of the carpet should be choosen wisely, to avoid overdamping the highs in the specific room.

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    Coupling the speakers to the floor just causes the building to add it's own response to the spectrum excited by the speakers. There is no advantage to transient performance by doing so. The speed of the cones renders the issue moot. What happens is some frequencies are boosted, muddying others with the net result being just boom. The best way to place speakers is to do the opposite and decouple them. Now you get the flattest performance with good bottom end definition. Directly flat on the carpet doesn't work because they're now using the floor as a sound board which is even worse. There are expensive devices/products that are designed to decouple. I just use soft 1" thick 12"X18" fiber pads used for floor polishers from Home Depot with a 1/4" rubber mat between it and the speaker. They absorb virtually everything, the floor does not vibrate at all. The large 12X18 pad takes a lot of weight spread evenly over it. A stiff board placed on top might be needed if your speakers have a small foot print. I currently have my two Velodyne subs on this set up. The difference is quite dramatic. This is at least a very cheap experiment I would encourage all to try. You may be pleasantly surprised.

    This set up is also very beneficial under your tube gear.Name:  P1020507.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasfan View Post
    Coupling the speakers to the floor just causes the building to add it's own response to the spectrum excited by the speakers. There is no advantage to transient performance by doing so. The speed of the cones renders the issue moot. What happens is some frequencies are boosted, muddying others with the net result being just boom. The best way to place speakers is to do the opposite and decouple them. Now you get the flattest performance with good bottom end definition. Directly flat on the carpet doesn't work because they're now using the floor as a sound board which is even worse. There are expensive devices/products that are designed to decouple. I just use soft 1" thick 12"X18" fiber pads used for floor polishers from Home Depot with a 1/4" rubber mat between it and the speaker. They absorb virtually everything, the floor does not vibrate at all. The large 12X18 pad takes a lot of weight spread evenly over it. A stiff board placed on top might be needed if your speakers have a small foot print. I currently have my two Velodyne subs on this set up. The difference is quite dramatic. This is at least a very cheap experiment I would encourage all to try. You may be pleasantly surprised.

    This set up is also very beneficial under your tube gear.Name:  P1020507.jpg
Views: 755
Size:  86.2 KB
    Okay

    Looking at your image in post 6 what you seen to have is the sub sitting on the pad which is raised over the floor by a support of some kind.

    Can you post a wider angle image?

    What you have done appears to involve more than what you have described?

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    Perhaps it’s also useful to clarify when we are just referring to a sub and when referring to a full range loudspeaker.

    I full range loudspeaker by virtue of radiating mid range frequencies may have more clarity without direct surface contact with a timber floor where vibration courts between the surface of the enclosure and the floor.

    I don’t own a Velodyn sub so l cannot comment on your assertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Perhaps it’s also useful to clarify when we are just referring to a sub and when referring to a full range loudspeaker.

    I full range loudspeaker by virtue of radiating mid range frequencies may have more clarity without direct surface contact with a timber floor where vibration courts between the surface of the enclosure and the floor.

    I don’t own a Velodyn sub so l cannot comment on your assertion.
    Sure, one confirms the other incrementally. Remove the subs and it's anybody's guess. When they're playing they may as well be attached to the mains.

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    Assuming what you say is true the possible explanations lies in the case of your Velodye Sub exhibiting enough low frequency energy to vibrate against your floor regardless of using spikes or feet of some sort.

    Being the case where a small low mass enclosure is radiating enough bass energy then that is to be expected.

    In comparison a heavy JBL like a 4645 the significant mass on the enclosure on the floor via feet or spikes may acts to damp spurious vibrations caused be the acoustic output of the 2245 driver and ports.

    What this means is it’s most likely a case by case situation rather than one observation applying to all loudspeakers and floors.

    I am surprised that your Velodyne sub shakes and rattles to the point you need to put pads under it!(Lol)

    As an experiment you could try mass loading the sub with a few concrete slabs on top of it and evaluate any change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Assuming what you say is true the possible explanations lies in the case of your Velodye Sub exhibiting enough low frequency energy to vibrate against your floor regardless of using spikes or feet of some sort.

    Being the case where a small low mass enclosure is radiating enough bass energy then that is to be expected.

    In comparison a heavy JBL like a 4645 the significant mass on the enclosure on the floor via feet or spikes may acts to damp spurious vibrations caused be the acoustic output of the 2245 driver and ports.

    What this means is it’s most likely a case by case situation rather than one observation applying to all loudspeakers and floors.

    I am surprised that your Velodyne sub shakes and rattles to the point you need to put pads under it!(Lol)

    As an experiment you could try mass loading the sub with a few concrete slabs on top of it and evaluate any change?
    Well okay, in that case I'll get my ass in gear and build those 2269 subs to integrate with my Acoustat Monitor 3 and see what happens. The Velodynes are actually quite rigid. But with an 18X14.5 foot print, they couple to the floor well. The way I have them set up, they work.

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    Please take my posts not too seriously but more as light entertainment to relieve an otherwise boring uneventful day.

    Some trivia.
    My writing style has been compared to this American writer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_T._Vollmann
    I take this as a compliment but draw the distinction at not being a cross dresser as noted in the above link.

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    Well, this topic always brings up contrasting opinions, it was just a question of time

    I have to agree, that coupling the speakers to the floor adds building vibrations at some degree. If you have a floating parquet flooring, that will be quiet audible. But if you have a glued down parquet flooring or concrete floor that is totally negligible.
    By the way; most building vibrations are caused indirectly by the air vibrations anyway, not the speakers coupling the floor itself.
    Decoupling a speaker from the floor only helps little to reduce unwanted noise annoying your neighbours etc., it´s simply a myth. In theory it reduces noise a bit, but most vibrations are induced by the air sound pressure anyway. Decoupling works for a washer, but not really for a speaker...

    Coupling the speakers to a (hard) floor is a big advantage for transient response, I´m actually a little shocked you are denying that. The justification is actually very simple, the speakers gain restoring forces by coupling to big masses. The same is true for a massive enclosure...

    Decoupling a disc player is a totally different story. This really does make sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    Well, this topic always brings up contrasting opinions, it was just a question of time

    I have to agree, that coupling the speakers to the floor adds building vibrations at some degree. If you have a floating parquet flooring, that will be quiet audible. But if you have a glued down parquet flooring or concrete floor that is totally negligible.
    By the way; most building vibrations are caused indirectly by the air vibrations anyway, not the speakers coupling the floor itself.
    Decoupling a speaker from the floor only helps little to reduce unwanted noise annoying your neighbours etc., it´s simply a myth. In theory it reduces noise a bit, but most vibrations are induced by the air sound pressure anyway. Decoupling works for a washer, but not really for a speaker...

    Coupling the speakers to a (hard) floor is a big advantage for transient response, I´m actually a little shocked you are denying that. The justification is actually very simple, the speakers gain restoring forces by coupling to big masses. The same is true for a massive enclosure...

    Decoupling a disc player is a totally different story. This really does make sense to me.
    Well, my experience is no myth. Most current research you'll find also favors decoupling. The best/most expensive products you'll find for speakers are not spikes but in fact decoupling/isolating devices.

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    Thanks a lot for the post from Greg Timbers!

    This is what I tried to say in post 7... The coupling to the (hard) floor enables the speaker to gain restoring forces, which yield to a hard bass kick, dynamic impact and good transient response.
    As Greg Timbers said, if there is any rocking e.g. movement of the enclosure, this energy is gone and wasted. That´s why I avoid decoupling speakers on hard floors.

    Of course you don´t need spikes to do this, any good coupling will do. I prefer 3 speaker stands as 4 usually tend to wobble.

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