Please thread very carefully when considering an item selling for less than one third the price in this corner of the World. I concur very much with Guiliano above. Strictly pick up only and even then be very aware of remote locations for that.
Please thread very carefully when considering an item selling for less than one third the price in this corner of the World. I concur very much with Guiliano above. Strictly pick up only and even then be very aware of remote locations for that.
That could more promising but any second hand loudspeaker purchase is a leap of faith.Originally Posted by Kai
Guido has a lot of hands on experience and is very professional. If you look at his web site he has numerous examples of JBL restorations and construction.
As Rob (another highly experienced user) mentioned earlier if you are experienced and have a good understanding of re-foam procedure you might tackle it at home. There are specialist after market re foam suppliers who will provide some guidance of the closest reform kit for your 2121. If you are not confident locate a technician to do it. There is nothing simple or easy about the process and once you start the process there is no turning back.
There are also after market re-cone kits for the 2121. Its useful to appreciate that JBL (Northridge) out sourced the cones used in their drivers from loudspeaker component part manufacturers like Hawley in the USA. Every paper cone assembly is made from metal mould where the paper pulp is injected into the mould and later dried. The 2121 had a specific mould and the cone has specific geometry, mass and stiffness ect. Assuming the mould has not been destroyed its sitting on a shelf in the plant where the cones were made.(The situation might have changed with JBL taking over the Selenium factoryhttps://www.prosoundnetwork.com/pro-sound-news-blog/1560 ).
The best case scenario is the after market re-cone kit comes from the same mould. The unknown is does the re-cone kit meet the JBL specifications such as power rating. When it get around to it I will compare the after market kit to the original 2121 which I have access to.
This assumes the driver(s) need repair. Until you have the system in you own environment and have had the drivers evaluated you won't know whats required beyond any obvious problems like crumbling foam surrounds.
Concerning JBL genuine re-cone kits unless JBL have softened up on their policy you cannot buy a re-cone kit as an end user. It must be installed buy a JBL authorised agent/technician. This is for warranty reasons. The re-cone kits are not always as accessible they once were and you might wait 6-10 weeks before the re-cone can be installed.
Hi Kai,
RE: Post # 32
Though some people would like you to believe that speaker restoration (refoam/recone) is only a matter of "experience", its not necessarily the case, far from it. "Experience" appears more like a smoke screen when taken alone...
2 years ago on the web site of a known local Pro shop claiming to be "experienced" in doing nice speaker repairs, they had a picture of a 15" woofer they refoamed, this showed quite similar deficiencies to the 10" driver picture in this thread! Seeing this, I never gave them work. Later they took the picture down...
I was speaking a couple of years ago with an owner of Solen I know since I'm a customer there for 25+ years, regarding who does a nice refoam/recone job because I had a few to do. I mentioned names of known possible places (even authorized JBL and others). Solen did sent numerous speakers outside for repair, to very "experienced" and known shops, because they sell/distribute a LOT of brand name drivers from low to very high-priced items.
Interestingly, he said my shop names with most "experience/expertise" here were the places where the work done for him was the worst quality, that they should know better that, he even added he threw some repaired drivers in the garbage when getting them back, as they couldn't sell them in that condition! Also interesting are the places used for repair.
For refoam/recones, a one-man show shop, guy not even a technician, but rather a guitar player who started by repairing amplified lead guitar/bass guitar cabs, etc. He's conscientious and takes his time to do it right. Refoam turnover time a month! (has other jobs too), but Solen swears his work is top notch...
For electronic repairs, again not one of the major "experienced" shops, but a loner doing this in his home basement shop, he's an electronics technician from airplane avionics repair. He cares and does it right.
Many "experienced" professionnal refoamers/reconers do this by habit, on cruise control, since not rocket science, they go fast (claim 1/2 hr refoam), even rounding corners in order to attack the next jobs waiting. Some videos on the net are revealing. Quite understandable, business has to make money, time is valueable so can't spend too much and refoam work prices are even seen at a flat rate per size. So to be profitable no time to waste, doing it the fastest way. Some don't shim, therefore don't cut the dust cap saving time, when they do cut it many glue a new larger cap to cover their traces (adding mass) and its faster. The frame, cone and/or old surround clean-up is done quickly, sometimes barely, even seen foams glued on front side of cones instead of back side as original since its easier and faster, claiming its the same, then why JBL glued it on back side? That from "experienced" people! Yet, attention to details his important here, since the evil is in the details...
One person here says "I have done many over the years-just need very sharp tools [razor blades, exacto knives] good eyes steady hands, and patience." I certainly agree with the eyes, hands and patience (the latter of which businesses rarely have). As for the list of supplies needed, apart from the refoam kit, that list seems markedly short (shims, alcool, etc.), with all due respect.
My neighbor hired an "experienced" contractor to do a fence, long balcony and a large pool deck. The number of deficiencies on these is high (he had even installed two VERY twisted boards right in the middle of balcony!). Plus elementary mistakes related to ground freezing here in winter (often -20° to -30°C) and thaw (contraction and release, ground moving), which may well damage his pool! An "experienced" contractor living here should do better than that...
Its evident that "experience" isn't THE key to it all. The ASSUMED correlation between years exp. and quality work is very shaky in my book. Experience should rightly bring useful knowledge from having done something before (even by trial/error), but in NO way does it GUARANTEE how well this knowledge will be used nor the quality of work done. Those recurrent "experience" mentions in posts don't really mean much the way they're boasted. Probably not even in the top three or four requirements to get the best job here e.g.: conscientious, meticulous/care, strong desire to help YOU succeed, etc. Once you have such personnal qualities, knowledge from experience will sure help, but if those qualities are not there, then "experience" steers things the cruise control way... Skills can be learned, having the right set of personnal values or the proper mindset is much more difficult to knit.
Hiring someone who's sole or main pretention or asset is experience is a risky investment, more than that is required for great work, as shown above and elsewhere. I have always rejected such candidates, as employees, contractors or project vendors. Simply because it misses the point or hides something else.
So if I were you, I wouldn't give too much weight to this "experience" thing initially, as this can be quite deceptive. First, go for such as above personnal qualities with a set of indirectly related questions to assess the person, make him talk, get his project vision first, etc., if you feel he/she really has what it takes, then consider the experience as a plus. As for the budget question often asked, the bait to make it easier/more profitable for vendor, don't fall into that trap, let HIM put numbers on the table for work you want, then YOU decide if it suits you. Manage the project yourself (budget, work involved, prices quoted, execution time, etc.), business decisions. A budget given up front is fast depleted... Globally, are his interests aligned on yours, the customer? They all claim to be the best, you're job is to cut through the sales pitch... Regards,
Richard
P.S. BTW the best car mechanic I've ever had wasn't the most "experienced" of the dealership, instead he was the most conscientious and cared to do it right time after time, and he did! That's why I kept him.
Not sure why post #32 was highlighted for reference, but sure, demonstrated proficiency is a big plus.
A 'speakers is speakers' volume shop may not be the best for restorations.
Several persons and businesses have demonstrated quality work and been highlighted in these forums.
Always nice to hear of one nearby (vs shipping and crossing fingers).
Well you covered a lot in that post.
I came to this forum as a FNG abt 12 years ago. Since then have done approx 100 refoams (no recones tho).
Got started as our local "expert shop" rather botched a job on my first JBL's (L26's) . I was unhappy about the sloppy glue all over (owner jokes that they "put the glue on with a firehose") and the wrong dustcap.
Studied the LHF tutorial and was doing so many that on our trip to Asia I stopped at the factory and filled my suitcases with all needed sizes. I have only 1 case where my refoam didn't work out and that was on a driver that I didn't fully check out before starting. It ain't rocket science.
My only trick was starting out on cheap throwaway drivers before graduating to JBL's. And yes, it can take 2 days or so for me to do a pair, but I do it right.
It's a great skill to have in your tools bag, I suggest that you start on something of low value and take your time.
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
Hi Grumpy and Seawolf,
Great to read your inputs. Two Cali fellows then. Hope its not burning close to you guys, really terrible what I've seen on the news...
To Grumpy:
I agree with your volume shop re restoration. Problem is too many of those these days, refoaming and reconing has become an industry within the industry. High gear production!
RE: "Always nice to hear of one nearby (vs shipping and crossing fingers)." Just so that I get this right does the finger crossing apply to shipping (that scares the hell out of me shipping drivers) or does it apply to one nearby, or to both? One nearby would be nice if the guy is conscientious and cares. There use to be one 15 min. from home (authorized EV and others) but the guy retired years ago, he gave me a handfull of different sizes woofer gaskets free when he closed shop, which I keep well wrapped and use as needed! BTW original 2214H gaskets are cheap, thin cardboard (a shame), never used them they're in a bag somewhere, I used instead nice ones the retiring fellow gave me!
To Seawolf:
Great post for me. My first JBLs bought new were also L26 in late 70s or early 80s can't remember for sure the year way too long ago. Kept them a few years then got tired of their "west coast sound" as it was called back then, sold them, purchased others more in line with the so called "east coast sound" which I still own, came back to the "west's sound" with Vega, dumped these, purchased the JBLs of my avatar which I still have, along with KLH, Polk and Britain's Mission, plus numerous others I built, and counting.
RE: "expert shop" rather botched a job", that's exactly what pisses me off. I agree its not rocket science but lots of details to do a nice job, takes time that many shops don't have or don't want to take, production...
RE: "My only trick was starting out on cheap throwaway drivers before graduating to JBL's (...) I suggest that you start on something of low value and take your time." Perfectly makes sense to me, however I initiated myself the hard way and graduated at the same time on... my 2214H! which are NOT throw away drivers for me. Believe me I was damn careful, took my time and even made myself some "tools", plus had to remove rotten foam inside from back vent to voice coil. Quite an initiation it was. But I learned a lot and did my best all the way. It took me much more than two days working on and off on these. Nice to hear from someone else who takes the time to do it right. Regards,
Richard
Well I don't think de-railing the thread with ones own poor experience on the subject of driver repairs helps the user.
Anyone with any sense knows finding a reliable and qualified trade is as much about the customer determining if the trade has the goods or not?
Just ask for his qualifications and referees?
You you can't do that what do you expect?
I brought home way more foam rings than I can ever use and so started selling them on CL. Have a deconstructed driver (Infinity) that I can use for a demo for buyers. I spend a little time with them and have made quite a few friends.
Finding that they can revive their "old friends" who have sat unused for years (and for a reasonable cost) is a revelation for many people. NEVER had any reports back that the person was unable to rescue the speakers.
I stopped shimming long ago and now do it by feel, but I do teach how to shim in case clearances are too tight (or confidence too low). Can claim no special abilities.
Currently have a pair of L19's (4301's ?) waiting for refoam, but that's a foul weather project. I just cant squander great bike riding weather while we have it.(Oregon, where the smoke is starting to clear)
Grew up down there, moved North long ago
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
I don't use shims. Play a constant 30hz tone through the woofer moves the cone. Adjust the cone while glue is drying to center the coil. Works every time [well over 100 now]. With very sharp tools I never have a need to use solvents!
That’s one approach but someone new to all this may have no idea what that entails.
On a forum it’s an informal situation and it’s entirely up to a user what they do.
The problem with offering advice is if they ask you for instructions / advice (even if you tell them exactly what to do) they may not have given you complete information on the issue and they may not execute the instructions correctly.
In the situation where you have agreed to offer to the user advice and in instances where it doesn’t work out you are seen to wear the liability.
By referring the user to a JBL authorised Agent the risk to transfered to the Agent. They put a warranty on the work and the user is happy.
As Edgewood has explained numerous times there is a distinction between between a loudspeaker repair shop, a Jbl Authorised Agent and the user attempting to do a repair at home.
I prefer to let people fight their own battles.
Solen are in receipt of post 33.
OK. Lesson learned.
Seems that "ones own poor experience " has done a better refoam job than some others, even some claiming "experience"...
Checking the comments about the refoam/recone fellow's name I was given, what comes out of it are meticulous, cares and takes the time to explain, not seen a mention of confidence because he's "experienced". Looking at a driver picture I didn't pick-up any flaws, contrary to another shop mentioned earlier.
As for the rest, well it shows how desperate one can be and that the posts touched worthy issues that were missing.
Thinks he's gonna scare me with sending post around? LOL. Simply mining right and left to try to find the slightest thing, as usual. Trying getting vendor to his recue to bolster his case with who knows what story.
He can e-mail the Pope, his buddies or wife, doesn't change anything to the factual reality, and being there.
Same old trick he pulled on Keele on another thread in trying to impress the gallery, where still hasn't shown the original e-mails sent/received, but rather preferred writing what HE wanted pretending to report on what HE claimed Keele might have said. Evident why. Not even quotation marks. Info had already been exposed by E-V 25 years before in Keele's own absence, on older data sheet HE had even posted! To what extent one will go in getting a "scoop"...
BTW, for some others, with regards to the "refoaming shops" discussion held, I still have my notes on that, with the shop names discussed and short assessment, whom I talked to, and even wrote on the back of his business cards I have the references given to me (that I didn't know and keep), plus still have another same day business card noting an offer made to me about purchasing one of two pairs of reconed new JBL 2245H he had (the other he said he kept). Naturally, I have the original invoice of the stuff I purchased on site that day, like all the other invoices from the first day, for all my gear and parts for that matter, even the gear given away free or sent to recycling. May be fun on the way.
He's more worried than anyone else about salvaging his posts and "experience" thing, whatever he pretends. Typical.
Sure he will write again, with same type of post as before, what HE wants to and claims (his own truth) to try to make himself look good. As far as I'm concerned, he can do HIS own ego's battle, as he needs that game to boost credibility...
No time to waste with "friends" like these, more valuable audio/speaker related stuff to do, contrary to him.
Everyone please use the ignore button on RMC Blurting
Okay,
We've heard some opinions.
Here is some product advice offered on the purchase of surround re foams.
This is a Canadian repair outfit.
They also offer an in-house repair service.
Note the re-foam instructions reference to experience of the end user.
https://www.santonaudio.ca/collections/foam-surrounds
Many older high-fidelity speakers have foam outer surrounds that are susceptible to rotting out over time, leaving ninety percent of the speaker in perfect working condition but un-usable because of the damaged surround. There are several factors that affect the life span of a foam surround such as climate, usage, and speaker location relative to sunlight (direct sun rapidly deteriorates foam surrounds).
If you bring your speaker into Santon Audio, we can replace the foam surround, restoring your speaker to almost-new condition for another 8 – 14 years. We also offer D.I.Y. Re foam Kits that you can purchase to complete the repair at home. Re foaming a speaker isn't terribly difficult, but it is time consuming and you only get one shot at it. Unless you have experience working with adhesives, we recommend bringing your speakers in for repair.
Next up a link to someone selling a JBL repair kit because he bought the wrong one!
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-speakers/mar...ationFlag=true
Another loudspeaker repair business in Canada
https://www.iavscanada.com/speaker-repair-division/
Re-coning
The word reconing is actually a misnomer. I say this because it is actually a complete driver overhaul. You have to remove all the moving parts of a speaker driver and replace each with new parts. This may include replacing the cone, spider, voice coil, lead wires, dust cap and/or gasket. A full recone is usually necessary when really bad things happened and damage has affected the suspension, or the voice coil has started rubbing, the spider or cone is ripped. Original recone parts are often available and, when not, replacement or after-market parts are used.
(Probably in the search of DEEP BASS)
Surround Replacement
Ah yes, the bread and butter of the speaker repair business. First, 99% of all speakers with foam surrounds that are 15+ years old may be due for new surrounds. This isn’t ‘manufacturers’ defects’ it’s just the way things are. Foam surrounds usually have a life expectancy of 8-14 years depending on climate, usage and speaker placement (speakers placed close to windows in direct sunlight). Being near salt water or in a dry or humid climate will also have an effect on the speaker surround life. Often people believe that putting surrounds on speakers is easy and are quick to buy ‘surround kits’ that are – for the most part – generic ‘one kinda size fits all’ replacements. A few dabs of glue, a little time in the garage and Voila! The speaker is as good as new! This simply cannot be further from the truth. Care when replacing the surround is critical, and needs to be done properly to insure proper alignment, positioning, movement and using the right parts so the new surrounds fit exactly. There are those that that feel that with enough glue, ANY surround will work on ANY speaker – ouch! There are still others that will happily cut and trim a 12″ surround foams to fit a 6″ driver. Again, not good. Replacing a surround takes time, patience and skill. Done right speakers look and perform beautifully. Done wrong you will know it during the first song played through them.
Pertinent points:
A few dabs of glue, a little time in the garage and Voila! This simply cannot be further from the truth. Done right speakers look and perform beautifully. Done wrong you will know it during the first song played through them.
A word about our warranty:
We take pride in what we do and it shows. From the moment your speakers are dropped off to when they are picked up they will be treated right. Because we only use the best parts and proper technicians to do the job right we want to insure that you get many more years of enjoyment from your newly repaired speakers which is why we offer a full 3 year parts and labor warranty. This warranty covers all components and parts used for a needed repair. Cool, huh!
Exclusions
Abuse -Refer to Deep Bass thread posts by RMC
Improper use - Refer to Deep Bass thread posts by RMC
Modifications - Refer to Deep Bass thread posts by RMC
Believe it or not there are people out there that feel (after reading internet forums because if it was posted there IT has to be true!) that modifying a factory built component will make a speaker ‘sound better’. Yup, uh huh, you bet. If we repair something and you pull it out and ‘modify’ that repair – sorry Charlie, no warranty for you.
http://www.fabaudio.com
Surround Replacement
This is a repair usually used for hi-fi drivers as they are the most common speakers that use foam material for the outer cone suspension. The foam surround has a usual life expectancy of 8 - 14 years depending on climate, usage and speaker placement. Direct sunlight (ultra violet rays) as well as a very dry or humid climate will speed up the deterioration process. Being near salt water will also have an effect on the speaker surround life. At Fab Audio, we carefully select the surround type to match the original part. Mass and compliance are very important. We pay close attention to these details when restoring a speaker.
That's only a few loudspeaker repair centres in Canada but none of them seem like a business that will knowingly do the wrong thing by you. That and the tone of RMC's posts (in this thread and elsewhere) suggests he's pure Evil and just here to alienate those who come here for assistance.
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