Hello everyone again ... I still enjoy all my JBL speakers here in Spain ... but I need a couple of woofers for one of my boxes 4425 and as we know it is difficult to find and more in my country. stock at a high price and I would like to know if there is an "equivalent" woofer to use at the moment while looking for a couple in good condition.
Worth owning is a pair of ( discountinued > so look for a used pair of )Beyma 12B100/R.
- It specs out as Beymas answer to JBL's 2203H.
or ( somewhat less appealing since this speaker specs out more like a 2213H )
12BR70.
Either of those 2 Spanish built woofers should suffice as reasonable place holders.
Yes, indeed that B100 looks good even though I see this out of market ... I will try to find something in stock. Thanks
Hi Alpina,
Some of the relevant T/S parameters of the 2214H (original 4425 woofer ) for better acoustical matching in the box may help you in your seach for a replacement driver: Fs 23hz, Qts 0.24, Vas 224 L., Xmax 6.6 mm, Re 5.6 ohms, No 1.1% and sensitivity 91 db/w/m.
Looking at Earl's suggestions, I agree the first is the more desireable of the two, not ideal just reasonable as he says, but discontinued.
Leaving sensitivity and baffle cutout aside for the time being, you can see from the TS even the first one could preferrably be closer to 2214H specs to minimize difference in sound. Plus if foam edges can be avoided the better for longevity and the work involved in refoaming, been there done that and its a pain, specially when the foam inside the woofer's rear vent hole is rotten too, has migrated and needs to be taken out...
If you're the type who likes to push it in terms of power input, the small Xmax number of the first suggestion (3 mm) is far from that of a real 2214H, which means you would get into Low Frequency distortion much sooner.
As for the second suggestion, its rubber surround lasts much longer and the Xmax at 8 mm are very nice, however some of its TS are much further away when comparing Fs, Qts (0.50 !!), Vas, No, etc. to the original. I would try to avoid this one.
I understand Earl tried to provide you with some suggestions close to home (Beyma being in Spain) and thats fine. But you can still search in Europe using the same Euro currency and maybe find a more suitable candidate.
Personnaly, I would look elsewhere than these two (one discontinued and one too far off) to try to find a better match. Being in Europe you have a LOT of driver manufacturers to look at: RCF, B&C, 18 Sound, etc. (more expensive), and others that require less money like Tymphany (Peerless, Vifa, etc.) and SB Acoustics just to name a few. Regards,
Richard
hello. Yes, indeed the model 70 seems short since, for my part, I like to raise the potentiometer since I have speakers for it ... I keep looking at options. Thanks
Hi Alpina,
I did a search for myself (and you), since I also may have to replace drivers one day, in order to find an acceptable replacement for the 2214H.
First I looked at 12" woofer specs/TS from the following manufacturers: RCF, B & C, Beyma, 18 Sound, Faital Pro and Fane Acoustics, all of which are from Europe plus well known Pro sound driver manufacturers. The results were not satisfactory in the present context, some prospects were discontinued, or because of too high Qts and/or Fs and too low Vas for the given box (4425).
Then I switched to more Hi-Fi manufacturers I previously mentioned. Beginning with SB Acoustics of Denmark. Bingo! I have found there a pretty good candidate to replace a 2214H, not an exact clone but more than reasonably close on many aspects. You can check it on sbacoustics.com. Model # is SB34NRXL75-8. Be careful as there is another model with very similar but not exact same number, and that other model is less desirable...
For start, this prospect has a rubber surround with much longer life than 2214H foam. Nice. Following are a few specs/TS for the SBA woofer and in parenthesis I put the equivalent 2214H data:
Impedance 8 ohms (8), Le 1.2 mh (1.3), VC 75 mm (75), Xmax 10 mm (6.6), Flux 1.1T (1.07), Fs 22hz (23), sens. 91 db (91), Qts 0.28 (0.24), MMS 93 gr. (90), BL 16.6 (16), Vas 205L. (224), rated power 200W (200).
I put driver DC resistance separately here because it requires some explanations: SBA Re 6.2 ohms (5.6 JBL 2012 T/S Table). But that JBL number appears to be the middle of the range since in the JBL L100T Tech Manual using the 2214H, woofer DCR min./max. is given as 5.1 - 6.3 ohms, and in the 4425 Tech Manual the 2214H woofer DC resistance is given as 5.7 ohms plus or less 10% (giving 5.1 - 6.3 ohms again same as L100T). So the SBA driver at 6.2 ohms would fit the range, providing its own tolerance is ok. (By the way the 2214H-1 with Aquaplas in the L100T3 has the SAME DC resistance range of 5.1 - 6.3 ohms as per Tech Manual 06/91).
As you can see above, specs wise the SBA driver is generally quite close to 2214H. The item that concerns me just a little bit is the little higher QTS and its effect on LF box response or size needed. I don't expect a big issue here but we'll see if I model it later in speaker design software using a box equivalent to 4425 (Vb 53.8 L, Fb 34 hz, as per JBL data sheets 01/86 and 7/93).
The SBA driver drawback is the baffle hole cutout of 305 mm VS 281-2 mm for my 2214H. This 24 mm or so difference may not be a major problem if removing 12 mm all around the present 2214H/4425 baffle hole. Measure precisely the present hole diameter to see what you have exactly, then can calculate what you actually need to remove with a jig saw to fit the new driver (first make sure nothing is in the way of a larger hole perimeter inside or outside the box).
The SBA woofer mounting depth indicated is 146 mm, the 2214H I measured is 135-6 mm (without gasket). So SBA woofer has 10 mm more depth which in most cases should not be a problem.
BTW in Canada this SBA woofer sells for $325. CAD (solen.ca), but being imported here I assume it would cost less in Europe. Also, there is probably a sizeable currency exchange effect in that Canadian price since the CAD is worth much less than the Euro. The 12" Pro drivers I looked at previously were often selling here in the $300-400+ CAD, and were much less suitable than the SBA.
I'm not finished yet looking at Peerless woofers data (Tymphany.com) to report on. Also when I have time I want to run the SBA woofer in speaker design software to see how it performs in the same Vb/Fb compared to the 4425/2214H. Regards,
Richard
P.S. I will be out for a week of vacation from July 7 so don't expect any reply from me during that time.
P.P.S. Almost finished writing this and I looked into my own speaker building projects binder where I keep my boxes info/data and some driver searches done, and found a paper of a previous search I did for 12" woofers (some Pro but most hi-fi) three years ago (not only for 2214H replacement). I had completely forgotten about that search I made since I do a few. On the hi-fi side of the prospects list the names are Dayton Audio, Hi-Vi research, Peerless and SB Acoustics. Guess what? The SB Acoustics # SB34NRXL75-8 mentioned above is on the list plus was a top contender! At the time I noted it sold for $315. CAD and I have a note regarding baffle cutout size required... So the old man is pretty consistent I guess!
This is probably a bit out of scope but would be an interesting alternative driver for a diy 4425 project
I have no personal experience with this particular driver but l haves used the TD15M.
They are very low distortion drivers. The 15H is reported as superior to the 2235H so the TD12H potentially a nice driver. Lots of copper and aluminium in the motor.
http://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td12h/
Either the H or X version would work.
TD12H-8ohm
Fs: 26.7Hz
Qms: 3.72
Vas: 160 L
Cms: 88.6 g
Rms: 4 kg/S
Xmax: 14 mm(peak)
Xmech: 18 mm(peak)
Sd: 530 sqcm
Vd: 1.48L (p-p)
Qes: .25
Re: 6.5 ohm
Le: .3 mH
Z: 8 ohm
Bl: 19.7 T/m
Pe: 500W (cont.)
Qts: .23
1WSPL: 92.9 dB
2.83V: 93.77 dB
Thanks for the contribution ... but there is an important question in the case of prices for equivalent components ... I have informed and can get new 2214H, here in JBL technical service, at a price of 800 euros the couple ( brand new) but you have to wait a while to be able to have them, since I suppose they have to manufacture them.
That said ... for prices of 300-400 plus shipping it is better to buy the new 2214h at that approximate price of 800 euros, I think.
PD:
I respect the purchases of ebay, for example, usually sold on 300 euros + 120 aprox shipping to Spain ... this must be added, almost always, a new suspension or something else. In total, makes a sum Approximately 600 euros placed in my house and in theory working properly ... I'm not interested in buying this type of woofer in the US where it is usually sold on ebay or similar.
I'll wait a reasonable time to see if I can get a couple of 2214h at a decent price-state and if not, I'll look at the ones posted here as equivalent.
Hi Alpina,
RE: "but there is an important question in the case of prices for equivalent components ..."
I realized that right from the start since you mentioned in post # 1 "stock at a high price and I would like to know if there is an "equivalent" woofer to use at the moment..." This is why I also indicated from the beginning lower cost brand names such as Peerless and SB Acoustics. I know I have drivers from both of these brands too, among many others. In addition, the $300-400 drivers mentioned were mostly from the Pro group I checked and they were not satisfactory specs/TS wise for the present case.
BTW, Canada and USA prices are usually plus taxes, whereas in Europe the VAT (value added tax) is often included in prices. That has to be kept in mind when making comparisons.
I agree with you about the E-Bay thing. However, I think you misunderstood post # 6 regarding pricing info I gave you about the SB Acoustics driver, or maybe you are less familiar with foreign currency dealings. The $325. is Canadian dollars (CAD), not US dollars, and the Canadian dollar is worth less than US dollar. Moreover, the Canadian dollar is worth even less VS the Euro... In practice this means the Canadian price of $325. is overinflated by the lower CAD currency exchange value.
I'm not suggesting you buy the drivers in Canada nor in the USA. If you purchase the SBA driver in Europe with Euros there is no inflated price due to currency exchange. My impression is that by purchasing in Europe with Euros you may be able to get the SBA driver for somewhere around 200+ Euros each (depending on VAT, and shipping?). Just look around in Europe to see what would be the price for the SBA driver. Maybe you can purchase in a European country close to you where VAT/shipping cost is lower?
As for the Visaton woofer suggestions you were given, the lower cost Model W 300 certainly doesn't pass the test, no surprise here. Its not equivalent, nor really suitable or acceptable globally since too many of its specs/TS are off compared to a 2214H for 4425 use.
With regards to the other TIW 300 suggestion, this one looks better, though still notably short on Vas, has a similar issue as the SBA re baffle cutout, but it is much more expensive in Canada, than the SBA, at $457. CAD. I assume it will be more expensive in Europe also...
As for the TD-12, the $329. starting price is more expensive being in USD (35% more than CAD at today's exchange rate at the bank), plus shipping cost to Europe... Also short on Vas, some others are a little off in the present context.
My Peerless 12" driver search is over and has returned nothing interesting or worth mentioning (TS generally too far off). Too bad because in the past they used to have some interesting models (I have a pair of 12" Peerless). Therefore, it seems your best bet remains the SBA.
Regards,
Richard
EDIT: The Visaton W 300 appears to have a foam surround while the TIW 300 seems to have a more desirable rubber surround for longevity. The SBA driver suggested has a rubber surround also. The 2214H definitely has foam surround, I own a pair of these drivers and had to refoam them.
Hi Alpina,
Regards what you do any suggestions needs to be weighed up against your required effort (such as enlargement of the woofer mounting hole - a non reversible decision), financial outlay and how fussy you are about the replacement woofer?
I read in your earlier thread you had a Jbl 2206 in a 4425 system.
Some context from you of the 4425 you are replacing the woofer for will focus any suggestions.
For example if you are a collector or a Jbl buff then perhaps only a new pair 2214H will do.
Buying drivers off eBay is fraught with danger.
Alternatively if you were keen to try other drivers and be flexible in re tuning the enclosure that is another pathway .
Beyond the basic TL parameters the geometry of the cone, the surround geometry and the cone material all combination to impact on the sound of the driver particularly if used in a bass midrange application. Paper cones vary considerably in the pulp used and in combination with other fibres and coatings.
A point to appreciate is the 4425 has a carefully designed crossover network that is tailored to the specific characteristics of the woofer and the horn/ compression driver. The whole thing it set up for seamless blending of the drivers.
Any alternative driver is going to require some adjustment of the network for it to work per the original design. That will require some technical expertise.
My suggestion would be to contact Rich in the UK and Guido in Europe who both have lots of experience with building and restoring Jbl systems.
Hola de nuevo ... Realmente me gustaría colocar sus woofers originales (me gusta la originalidad y no entiendo mucho para jugar con filtros ...) realmente ese beyma B100 me gustó porque incluso se ve físicamente en 2214 y podría parecer "original" "y el 4425 los restauré y me gustaría encontrar el 2214, por lo tanto, en este momento, esperaré un tiempo para buscar.
Había montado el 2206 porque compré mi 4425 sin woofers y este modelo anterior es más fácil de encontrar. .
Hi Alpina,
RE: "that beyma B100 I liked because it even looks physically at 2214 and it could seem "original"."
I can understand your concern for driver appearance, though there's a speaker grill hiding the driver...
If it looks nice but doesn't sound correctly what is the point for a speaker. Selling it as a "real" 4425?
I never build a piece of furniture, I concentrate on an acoustically sound box.
Personnaly I'm much less concerned about appearance and looks, than acoustical performance. I guess that's a matter of priorities or personal preferences.
Just in terms of appearance, those who know the 4425 and/or the 2214H driver would not be fooled by the Beyma driver since, for example, it has a 4" voice coil and dustcap accordingly (JBL 3"), the foam roll surround of the 2214H is wider than the Beyma and the JBL has a deep cone. These would tell immediately.
I would recognize right away this isn't the original woofer... not even mentioning the woofer's sound.
The Beyma also has a minor baffle cutout issue in addition to the T/S issues.
In case you want to look at another driver just for curiosity, I've found another one of some interest: Fostex FW305. Apart from sensitivity/power handling (the other side of the coin), the Fostex looks relatively good, just a bit short on Xmax. However, it sells for $400. or so in Canada, so again more expensive than the SBA.
Regards,
Richard
Alpina,
Look at the JBL SR 4722a. Same horn and driver and hi freq. crossover as the 4425. The pads have been eliminated and the crossover resistors have the PRO power dissipation levels. You could duplicate the low crossover section for the 2206s, and use the 2206. I am using the 2206s in my pair of 4425s. I think it is a much better sounding driver then the 2214h. I am not a 2214h fan in the 4425 box. In the 4425 cabinets they have a case of bass bloat in my sound space. The 2206s do not, and make the bass drum sound much more realistic IMHO.
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