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  1. #226
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    MY LAUGH OF THE DAY

    Sometimes marketing shows great imagination and a few exaggerations... Came across a Cerwin-Vega Web page ad from one of their dealers for a speaker part of their XLS series, model 215. Retailer wrote 24 hz bass which raised a red flag with me for the type of box shown, so went to see CV's speaker web page.

    That changed the 24hz bass story but the laugh remained: "Simply the biggest, baddest tower on the market... delivers earth-shaking bass down to 36 hz With guaranteed "eviction notice." LOL, not good for sales, never seen that one before, makes me wonder how many tenants, or even husbands for that matter, got evicted from home or found their suitcase on the sidewalk next to the XLS 215? Would the latter be part of the divorce settlement?

    Looking at the LF response data at the bottom of the page tells F3 38 hz and F10 36 hz!, pretty short of sismic bass, imagine at what level response would be for 24 hz. LF response that drops like a rock, like 7 db drop for two little hertz here, is often a sign of a bass bump right before the very steep drop. Smells like the "amplitude trick" once again.

    So, one probably won't get thrown out for earthquake bandwidth bass here, might be more for bumpy bass. On the interesting side I note the Waveguides for both the 6.5" cone mid and the dome tweeter which follows the market waveguide trend.

    Richard

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  2. #227
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    .. Came across a Cerwin-Vega Web page ad from one of their dealers for a speaker part of their XLS series
    Have never met anyone with a good impression of CV ... they may be same guys who like BOZE
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  3. #228
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    They had their day... that was quite awhile ago though.

  4. #229
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Sea,

    I tend to agree with Grumpy and would add the following.

    There's followers, fans and forums on the Net for about every major speaker brand. So i assume there are folks out there who like Vega. I'm not a fan of them but i do recognize that in the old days both Vega and Bose had a few interesting items.

    My first ever crossover, 1980, was a CV which i still have in a box, its what i would call a "semi-active/passive" device, or a student's budget (which i was at the time) dividing network. CV made these 1980-1985. It is "active" in view of its location in the signal path, before amplification, but passive with regards to its fixed frequency. On pic note i removed the housing rivets to look inside, still nice, 12db/oct. CV had a few models available at the time with different fixed frequency and RCA or 1/4". I biamped the 2205H cabs with smaller satellite speakers, still do but with fully active crossovers now (i.e. no more student budget, lol).

    Decades back Vega Pro made its reputation and money with folded horn bass cabs such as the L48 something, B36A, etc. used in discos and in some "earthquake" setups. They added mid horns, tweeters, xo, amps, etc. They still make some folded horns, though model numbers have changed over time (see attach).

    JBL sure attracted more folks and market share with its large number of components available in the DIY speaker era, but that has changed too... Vega and Bose Pro didn't have many speaker components like Altec and JBL did, mostly finished products. However i remember CV's large double spider Stroker woofer (also in the attachment). Regards,

    EDIT: Tried to upload CV Pro brochure but its too large for LHF...

    Richard
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  5. #230
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Recently added some 12 gauge speaker cables, "lamp cord" type construction, though nicer one. Clear jacket makes these blend much better in my "decor" plus look more like home speaker cable to me than large AC type extention cords used in sound reinforcement.

    I generally agree with Philip Giggings' article on noise in Audio and the twisted wire pair, however each person has to assess his own situation and potential noise risk. In my case no transmitters or particular EMI sources near by, think noise potential for me is probably more on the equipment hookup side than on speaker cable side.

    Twisted 12 AWG wires lead to a relatively large round cable jacket, often black color, which basically appears like touring stage cables (white ones with MONOPRICE printed on jacket every foot or meter isn't sexier either), to me both would look somewhat gross in a home setup. Even more so when having a number of amps/speakers in a room then it would make those cables quite visible and seem like a performing stage...

    Richard

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  6. #231
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Been considering, along with another member, a "group purchase" of some Community driver, in as much as it may please both. Doing some research about that i came across a Community Manual today with some interesting info, more specifically another perspective on speaker wires, and twisted pair or not...

    In my view the important aspect here lies in the explanations given by Community. These may comfort some in their cable choice (e.g. Seawolf in Fave cable for JBL thread; myself in post # 230 here), or irritate others.

    Note also the suggestion of using 14/4 AWG "quad wiring" with the two pairs in parallel at each end leading to an effectively 3 gauge larger speaker cable, as previously mentioned here re Eargle's note in post # 80.

    Richard

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  7. #232
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    RMC , you are my main source for info on Canadian audio gear (tho Lee & Earl are great too)

    I have a nice little Creek 30wpc amp on my headboard to run the Senn 6xx's . Decided to add speakers to it for when they are preferred.

    Started with some Minimus 7's .. nice H & M, but little B. Tried some flat Yammy's , but same problem. Then some larger no-names with a 6.5 woof ... better.
    Then I remembered some old faves that I hadn't seen in a while .... started digging yesterday and found them ... LOGIK's. made in Canada.

    Hooked them up and very pleased with their sound..balanced, smooth and do have bass. Tried to find some info on these ... all that is available is that they were from same company as ENERGY's & MIRAGE's ... good heritage.

    They are NOT high end, but I really like them (more than my 18ti's)

    Shot some pics ... d/l them today and said "oh crap, 1 foam is now rotted" .. took a look and it's just a glue reflection. (I refoamed them abt 20 years ago)

    Sooo, do you know anything about the LOGIK line/series ????
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  8. #233
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Hi Wolf,

    Long time no Sea. I can't recall ever seeing this Logik brand speakers. I did a quick search and attached here are the only things worth mentioning that i found, source being at the top of each page.

    Seemingly from Energy & Mirage heritage is not a bad thing hi-fi sound wise, as they made/still make quite listenable speakers, always subject to what one is looking for and budget (i.e. not in the same market as JBL Pro). Not surprised that you enjoy them, its fun to listen to other things than monsters sometimes.

    If they are house brand as some mention in the pics, getting more info might be difficult, even more so if they don't exist anymore. Plus i doubt Energy/Mirage would provide additional info. I think the data sheet is what you have shown printed on the back of the box and that's it. Not bad numbers though.

    RE do have Bass. The sensitivity number shown at 86 db does in my view confirm that. In such small boxes the only way to get bass is to sacrifice some efficiency for a little more LF bandwidth. Nothing wrong with this in view of the application. More so when JBL mentioned 85 db was a comfortable listening level (even saw from JBL further back in time 70-80 db was comfy). Welcome to the world of small boxes, i've enjoyed my small Mission and Polk Audio for decades... Regards,

    Richard

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  9. #234
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Hi Wolf,

    RE do have Bass. The sensitivity number shown at 86 db does in my view confirm that. In such small boxes the only way to get bass is to sacrifice some efficiency for a little more LF bandwidth. Nothing wrong with this in view of the application. More so when JBL mentioned 85 db was a comfortable listening level (even saw from JBL further back in time 70-80 db was comfy). Welcome to the world of small boxes, i've enjoyed my small Mission and Polk Audio for decades... Regards,

    Richard
    these Logik's seem to be 1980's vintage ... Have read that both RMS ratings and sensitivity measurements have changed since then.

    I've had a couple pairs of Mission , they sounded good .. but the cabs always seemed to be falling apart. ?? Also Polks, but have always sold those on. Ideally , I really enjoy the British 8 inch, 2 ways. My JBL 18Ti's were underwhelming, despite having the stellar 044Ti and good heritage.

    A couple posts back, you were talking speaker wire. In abt 1970 I purchased a good mid-fi (mostly Pioneer) system from the japan PX, but when released on the civilized world, I didn't have 2 nickels to rub together. I found some telephone wire . You know , that pinkish jacketed 4 wire , solid core stuff. It's pretty fine gauge (20-22ga ?)

    I'd twist 2 pairs together and used it for 1 side of my stereo pair and then on the other... was surprised as to how good that solution sounded.
    we never fail to fail, it is the easiest thing to do

  10. #235
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Sea,

    RE I've had a couple pairs of Mission , they sounded good .. but the cabs always seemed to be falling apart. ??

    Yeah, know why? Mission made the drivers/XO but subcontracted the cabinet making to India... Had heard about this possible issue, so i proactively removed woofers to check inside, barely any glue used! and no nails or screws either. Before having that problem i used Carpenter's glue on all inside joints plus nailed tiny finishing nails on the cabs' perimeter (nail heads can't be seen unless within 2 ft of boxes). Problem solved beforehand.

    Rated 70W max, i fed the small boxes the full output of the 1 RU BGW 100B amp at the onset of clipping (80W 4 ohms factory measured) and the cabs never fell apart. The interesting thing about the small speaker is that its optimized for flat power response, not on axis response, the effect is nice and they sound "larger" than size suggests. I posted that here previously.

    RE Also Polks, but have always sold those on

    The Polks i have, Monitor 5 purchased 1977, was among their first models, pretty nice sounding, i doubt you would have sold these on. Over the years Polk, like many others, reduced cost, put cheaper drivers in their cabs, etc. the usual story...

    RE I really enjoy the British 8 inch, 2 ways.

    Europeans do things differently in many cases, not necessarily chasing 2 kilo watt speakers like in North America. In the last 5 years or so i bought more European drivers than anything else as i don't need 130db. Interesting to read your JBL 18Ti's honesty.

    RE when released on the civilized world, I didn't have 2 nickels to rub together.

    You mean when released from the Navy? Thanks for your efforts, work and goodbye? Sounds pretty cheap to me for someone who served the nation, like no transition measures granted such as money, career/job help, etc.?

    RE speaker wire

    I do remember those pinkish jacketed 4 solid wire telephone wires from Ma Bell (maybe AT&T in the US). Never thought about using that, good imagination. Necessity mother of invention once again!

    BTW Eargle's take on fancy wires: "A great deal of money can be spent on system wiring, perhaps more than really need be. One beneficial fallout of expensive cable is the generally high quality of the connectors themselves." He's not mentioning sound magic, but the connectors. LOL (Loudspeaker Handbook, P. 178)

    Richard

  11. #236
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    ramble

    when discussing small 2 way's ... forgot that I have these Sonance MB-30's . forgot them as they are ceiling mounted for PC speakers (on the B pair) and JBL 120Ti's as the A's ...
    I really like the "new class - A" integrated amp that connects to the computer, BUT if I try to run all 4 , then it kills bass to the JBL's....so I've had the B's deselected.

    But as a holdover from the laptop, I'd gone to an echo for streaming music instead of online , so to save some CPU cycles. It was outputting to both a pair of little B&W's (that had little bass) and also to a BOZE Waveradio (it really makes bass) . But the B&W's had to sit up on a stand to project over & from behind my big monitor. No separation.

    The Sonances tho have about 12 feet separation and are powered by a little Denon amp. They could easily stand for music by themselves.

    I have 6-7 ? pairs of 2 way , 6.5's. They image well, but box size appears to make a big difference in bass response.

    not my pic .. mine still white.

    NEXT DAY EDIT: forgot ..have some nice little JBL L-15's that I'll try to locate and give a try with the Creek amp.

    from the web: I also have a friend who has the famous Yamaha NS10 recording monitor and for home purposes, at least, I would choose the L15's in heart beat. The L15 is a nice speaker at low volumes and is not shy if you want to crank it up as well.

    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ce-set.714710/

    while doing a little research on these, before trying to locate, I found this post that I'd never seen

    Originally Posted by Chris Brown
    ...the L60T's should be better in just about every way.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    You would think, wouldn't you? But Seawolf's First Law of Overachieving JBLs says otherwise, and the experiences of several others here would support their being enamored by the baby L20t and underwhelmed by the larger L60T.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...vs-L26-vs-L60T
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  12. #237
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Si,

    RE: little B&W's (that had little bass) and also to a BOZE Waveradio (it really makes bass)

    Which little B&W? The only one i seem to remember is DM110 i think from 80's

    After all YOU ARE a Bose man with waveradio, YUP, all you're missing now is some Vega...

    RE: The Sonances

    These look like outside installation speakers, but are they really i don't know, won't prevent inside use

    RE: I have 6-7 ? pairs of 2 way , 6.5's.

    Do you biamp some of these with the M&K sub you previously mentioned? Could make some nice combinations.

    RE: little JBL L-15's that I'll try to locate ... before trying to locate

    You must have a pretty large warehouse, having to try to locate those...

    Funny new Avatar pic. Definitely shows you're all ears for 45 rpm hit singles, lol

    BTW slower to reply, busy doing lot of electrical work in the house, beefing up some power lines/circuits, still to come audio room, wife's own list always more urgent than mine...

  13. #238
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post

    Which little B&W? The only one i seem to remember is DM110 i think from 80's

    Do you biamp some of these with the M&K sub you previously mentioned? Could make some nice combinations.

    You must have a pretty large warehouse, having to try to locate those.
    B&W Rock Solids

    the M&K's way too big for the bedroom install, tho do have a 12 in. Velodyne Servo sub in there for the HT.

    no warehouse, we have 3 bedrooms, but use the family room (14x24) for HT , desks/office & bed. So have 3 inside storage areas + garage + patio + shed + greenhouse.

    I did find the L-15's ... bigger than the Logiks, even better bass and lots of mf/hf detail. They are keepers.

    LATER EDIT: So I ran the L-15's last night .. I just let the echo stream pretty non-complex stations ... nothing too exciting .. patsy Cline station or Julie London .. both of those include lots of standup bass in their music ..now I can actually hear it. vocals are especially good on them ... the 034 or 033 sound very good to me. Not quite the sparkle of the Ti HF's, but they seem a bit more listenable.

    I did have some L-16's and should NOT have sold those. Also have 2 pairs of L-19's in storage, 1 still needing refoams, but they are a bit too large for this application (sitting on top of the a/d/s L-1290's)

    IF I were to get a little energetic , there are a nice pair of NHT-1's waiting for refoam too .. found them on top of a dresser .

    2nd later edit: During my archaeological dig, I found a second pair of L-15's , tho these do need new foams.

    whats the best sounding "small" speaker you've ever heard ?

    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.....254112/page-1
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  14. #239
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Wolf,

    RE: So have 3 inside storage areas + garage + patio + shed + greenhouse.

    Is audio green by any chance? Seems almost like an "audio home warehouse". Maybe some "virtual" speakers in the Cloud for the future, who knows? Any space left for the bike, lawn mower and car??

    RE: I did have some L-16's and should NOT have sold those.

    I never regreted selling the L-26, bass and treble mostly, little in between, and poor treble it was. Speaker lacking a lot of detail/finesse, not bass though.

    RE: refoams

    So now you got 3 pairs to refoam (L-19, NHT, L-15). I still have three pairs of drivers with foams, though one pair has pretty long lasting rubberized foams, nice, and i'm trying not to add any other foam drivers. In the last 5+ years I've been able to stay away from foam edge speakers as they don't last long enough for me. During that period i purchased rubber or cloth surround woofers only. Hopefully it continues this way because doing a proper refoam job takes too much time.

    RE: whats the best sounding "small" speaker you've ever heard ?

    There's possibly hundreds of small boxes on the market and i sure have not listened to all of them, not even half of these. So my sample would be too small to designate a best sounding one among the crowd. However, seen another way, i've kept for decades the old Polks, Missions plus the ones i made. That may be an indication i guess, otherwise would have dumped them.

    RE: IF I were to get a little energetic...

    How's the injury doing, getting better or standstill?

    BTW have delayed the purchase of the Grado headphones for two reasons. Bought a new replacement laptop for my daughter, more urgent these days with virtual classrooms, she's part time teacher for now.

    On the other hand i was told Grado CDN distributor is located in a house, so a Ma & Pa type of shop in their basement i guess. Its been said many times in the media here that probably half of small businesses won't make it through the pandemic. So before giving Grado hundreds of $$, since i also want to add a phono cart. at the same time, first i want to know in which half they will end up being. If they go underwater i can kiss my money goodbye with nothing in return... Moreover, a few days ago Canada Post's main processing plant in the region said it had 250 trailers of parcels in the backyard waiting to be unloaded! They work with reduced staff, apply distancing, sanitary measures, etc. So i'd probably have to wait a long time anyway...

    Like for my Eargle book Down Under. Just got news about it, they're transferring my parcel to a sea carrier! (see pic). Maybe another name for a sea wolf? Curious part, yesterday tracked the book no new info. Today new info appears but dated May 16! Back dated or 2 week delay to update tracking info? Not departed yet it seems. Hope doesn't follow similar path as the records you sent to your son: Portland, Puerto Rico! Chicago.

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  15. #240
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Wolf,

    RE: I did have some L-16's and should NOT have sold those.

    I never regreted selling the L-26, bass and treble mostly, little in between, and poor treble it was. Speaker lacking a lot of detail/finesse, not bass though.

    I've sold 3-4 pairs of L26's tho I like them, just ran out of room and replaced with better.

    RE: refoams

    So now you got 3 pairs to refoam (L-19, NHT, L-15).

    Sure that I've got a lot more than that to do, but it's boring and can wait for another day.those 3 are just ones that I can see

    RE: whats the best sounding "small" speaker you've ever heard ?

    There's possibly hundreds of small boxes on the market and i sure have not listened to all of them, not even half of these.

    that's a link I found while researching the L-15's .. they were mentioned on page 21


    RE: IF I were to get a little energetic...

    How's the injury doing, getting better or standstill?

    no recent improvement

    On the other hand i was told Grado CDN distributor is located in a house,
    Hope doesn't follow similar path as the records you sent to your son: Portland, Puerto Rico! Chicago.

    Grado's HQ is in a house in NY as far as I know.

    I tracked that box, Portland>Seattle>Tulsa>Miami>Puerto Rico>Miami>Chicago
    On it's 2nd trip thru Miami they figured out the mess and then airmailed it on ..


    the 2 M>PR>M trips were via ship/boat. 2 weeks at sea on a Port>Chicago trip
    we never fail to fail, it is the easiest thing to do

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