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Thread: Bgw amp plus eq for free!

  1. #271
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Sea,

    RE "If I gained that much, would look for my pistol." LOL, but I don't see the pic you posted as being gross, no.

    RE "sorry to hear abt wife ...back pain is terrible." Yes, and i remind her to bend the knees when getting down, instead of bending the back. Best & easiest trick to avoid a relapse. She's improving but it takes some time and attention to moves made to get back to normal. We'll get there.

    RE "Even this latest incident is covered by a good insurance co. (driver of offending truck has commercial million dollar liability policy)" Well, that's the reason we have year-round $2 million car and personnal liability insurances also applicable in the US, the land of lawsuits. An accident could be costly there, and our premiums are very low, so its a no brainer.

    Doubtful though we'll go on vacation to the US this year with the Covid surge around the country, border closed to non-essential travel, and the virus scares wife. Thought about autumn mabe, but she's not sold on it... yet.

  2. #272
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    ELECTRICAL DOUBLE TAP

    Electricians usually wire a house electrical system using somewhat of a "spider web" pattern as this minimizes the use of cable and cost. When you need to cut power on a circuit or for a room only you may realize other stuff gets turned off also because a number of things are linked together. Never liked that, so i undo most of these linked cables going left and right, and replaced these with one cable going all the way for each circuit.

    My wiring technique does require more cable, breakers, connectors, etc. so more costly for sure. But doing it this way gives me way more flexibility when i need to change something, by not affecting other stuff on the line. Also i can't recall having a breaker trip because of too much stuff being connected to a line.

    However, since more circuits are used, a time may come where available breakers will be rare. The answer to this is breaker double tap, quick and easy contrary to installing a more expensive extention breaker box, and assuming the electrical system is powerful enough to feed a sub panel.

    Some circuits are a waste of a good breaker in view of the very small load on them, which can be shifted on to another breaker in many cases. Breakers can be used single tap, as in most cases, but also double tap if need be, providing voltage is the same and number of amperes allows. Many breakers already have spaces for two hot wires.

    Its important to know the actual load on each of the two breakers involved before making a double tap decision. The number of amperes written on the recipient breaker must not be exceeded. One should also keep in mind future possible load addition(s) on the breaker if any (e.g. new amplifier), or the moving of a sound system to another room later. Most appliances and other devices have a sticker indicating number of ampere or watts used.

    Many times you don't even need to touch the white neutral and ground wires, which can stay where they are connected, only the hot black wire is moved to another breaker already in use. Naturally, this means having some hot black wire loose in the panel in order to move it, and the breaker getting double tap is preferably not too far from the other one regarding hot wire lenght, otherwise you might need to extend the hot wire to be moved.

    An example of double tap may be say a 6 amp load on breaker A and an 8 amp load on breaker B. Putting both loads (hot wires) on breaker B would give 14 amps total, ok for a normal 15 amp circuit. Then breaker A is now free and available for something else to be connected to it.

    One should never forget to turn off power on BOTH of these breakers before applying this trick and/or refer to a qualified electrician.

    Pic: two single breakers side by side, shown down side up, wire tightening screw with metal plate under having two slots for wires, arrows on left breaker indicating where a short nude part of the two hot wires go for double tap. On the right breaker arrow showing a single tap where a short nude part of the wire is inserted for connection, but in this case its to either of the two slots shown.

    Richard

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  3. #273
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    GROUND WIRE SIZE

    Ground wire's purpose is basically to carry "wild" currents, such as when a hot wire breaks loose and touches something else, on a path of least resistance (easiest route) to protect the user from being shocked.

    Philip Giddings, P. Eng. Electrical Engineering has noted, on the first page bottom right of his article i posted previously, the simplistic thinking in systems design and some life safety issue with regards to grounding. Re latter he added page 3 that ground should be low impedance, meaning low resistance, synonym of larger wire gauge.

    Well, can't really say that AC cable manufacturers follow this good practice.

    Recent electrical work reminded me AC cable makers downsize the ground wire in their cables vs the conductors' size (black, red, white). Examples are shown here: 10 AWG GND for 8 AWG conductors and 14 AWG GND for 12 AWG conductors in other cases. This is surprising and somewhat unwise. The GND wire is supposed to be a path of LEAST resistance draining abnormal currents to earth so user remains safe.

    An undue current should easily find its way and go through the ground wire instead of through your body. Making ground wires smaller than the conductors INCREASES path resistance, so it might not offer optimal performance if something goes wrong.

    I assume AC cable makers determined that a one-size smaller GND wire is sufficient, while saving money. Their reasoning could be that little or no current usually goes in the GND wire, or that if an equipment malfunction does occur the AC breaker should trip, then the juice going in smaller GND wire would be of short duration, maybe not long enough to heat up that undersized wire from excess current...

    Fortunately, being less than optimal doesn't stop audio from working, though it may be more prone to some noise

    1rst pic: top right, arrow shows 10 AWG ground wire from left side in panel connected to right side ground bus bar. That wire is GND for the big 8 AWG conductors indicated by arrow top left (red, black and white). This is a 240V/40A circuit for kitchen electric range/oven. I'm a little more concerned, wear gloves, when working around this "juicy"one and another at 30A.

    The white neutral wire here is an exception among the 240V stuff which usually doesn't need it. Reason for it is the user control panel on the range/oven works on 120V requiring a neutral, but the heating elements use 240V. Similar situation with electric clothes dryer (240V/30A) also having a 120V user control panel thus a neutral wire. Electric baseboard heating, hot water tank and central air conditioning, all powered by 240V, have only 2 hot 120V wires and a ground one.

    During my breaker box cleanup i moved the above 10 gauge GND to the left side of box (prior shown pic) as there was connection space there, and i prefer having left side entry stuff on the left and right side entry stuff on the right, though things work on either side. The "RMC special" red cable being the only exception, as explained.

    2nd pic: the 12 AWG roll of AC cable i bought recently for my audio project also has smaller ground wire (middle one) at 14 AWG vs the black and white conductors.

    3rd pic: this is a 12/3 cable i made for use with my 3,500 Watt peak portable 120/240V power generator, in order to power some 240V stuff during a major outage (e.g. hot water tank). Ground wire on this is smaller too when compared to black, red and white wires.

    The large 30A twist-lock connector plugs into the generator and at the other end the three conductors + gnd allow powering 240V stuff with or without white neutral wire (i put a twist wire connector covering the exposed part of the neutral when its not used, this way it doesn't create any issue). The black rubber tape on the yellow jacket cable doesn't repair anything, its simply an added jacket protection for some "pressure points" on the cable's way, like the closing of basement sliding windows on the cable, without force applied, to minimize summer bugs getting in, maybe a skunk or racoon family too, lol, or keeping the pretty cold winter air out, etc.

    An AC duplex receptacle is also provided for 120V things, therefore use a number of 14 and 12 AWG extensions i have, as well as short 14 gauge cords i made with AC duplex receptacle at one end (4th pic), adding connection flexibility, such as plugging low power cell phone charger with other stuff. All looks simple, but entails lots of logistics to avoid wasting, better prolong fuel in stock. When the generator runs it has to be somewhat loaded.

    Basically bringing juice inside the house from the outside located generator (near a shop window with exhaust directed away from it), then dispatch that power to whatever is more important or combinations of things (e.g. refrigerators/freezers; oil furnace in winter) based on amperes available. There are quite many cables on shop floor when this happens, not all plugged at the same time, but staying there on stand-by for their turn to come.

    That emergency power system is limited by generator capability: 12.5-14.5 amps @ 240V OR 20 amps @ 120V (the latter limited by the 20A AC receptacle), enough but not both voltages at once. Have electrical junction boxes already installed in basement shop for some appliances, easy to undo regular wiring connections and replace them with the wires coming from the generator.

    One must never forget to turn off power before, in house breaker box, for the appliance(s) he plans to power with a generator, unless having a special device already installed.

    So many cables, from very different years, do share the same "disease" of having a somewhat undersized ground wire. Not the generator's 8 AWG ground wire available though, its oversized in view of the powers involved here, plus considering some houses have that gauge ground wire installed as main...

    Richard

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    Last edited by RMC; 07-20-2020 at 11:59 AM. Reason: corrections to power generator capabilities

  4. #274
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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  5. #275
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    RE Thread "Stereophile on Floyd Toole"

    Don't want to steal Wolf's above-mentioned thread which is somewhat different than what i'm showing so decided to post the following here.

    The mention of "tone control" and "Smiley EQ curve" in the above thread is interesting as it brings back to memory yet another comparable application. Decades ago (late 70's) had a Yamaha with a "Loudness control" which indirectly mimics the principle of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness contours. Stepped half-turn knob at 12 O'clock has no effect, normal flat response. However, turning it counter-clockwise made Mid sound progressively cave in (like negative EQ). Therefore leaving the LF and HF at a higher level than Mid sound. The lower the SPL the more counter-clockwise knob turning to keep low/mid/high perception about same.This compensating for the ear's lower sensitivity at both ends of the spectrum at some levels (more so in LF). Then, increasing LF and HF (tone control or smiley eq), or decreasing Mid (loudness control), both seem pretty much like two sides of the same coin, i.e. similar effect perception wise. The one adding requires more power than the other which subtracts.

    What we usually don't see is the reverse of the Fletcher-Munson graph shown here (pic), for one level only though. Can't remember if i posted that before, its from user manual of my JVC Mini Disc Digital Recorder (1999).

    What the graph shows, basically, is the human ear's "frequency response" to sound waves excitation at that level. The curve's shape does change as sound level increases or decreases, more evidently with LF.

    Flip over that graph (like forward, not sideways) and you get about the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curve. LFs falling become LF rise, Mid peak becomes Mid dip and HF dip becomes HF rise. The opposite is also true, flip over the Fletcher-Munson curve and you get a similar one to the JVC shown here...

    Reference here to Fletcher-Munson (1930's) instead of the Robinson-Dadson (1950's) similar graph. Reason more recent work on this done around the globe has determined the Robinson curve is the odd one (questionable), and such more recent research (ISO 226: 2003) has determined the older Fletcher graph is more in accordance with newer data than Robinson's... (see Wikipedia pic)

    Showing also a pic of the more recent version of this graph ISO 226:2003. Seems to me things are not really improving perception wise, LOL

    Plus a link for those who have time to read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

    Not a crime to "play" the curve or part of it in a DIY home or PA/SR speaker, however in professional control rooms with monitors it would be less acceptable since "ruler flat" response is more the norm.

    "Playing" the equal loudness curve (i.e. taking advantage of the range where the ear is most sensitive) is sort of a little cheat with regards to perceived sound vs the actual one measured. Moreover, to get out of the ditch on a project this may help a little in the Mid so that two drivers can "meet" slightly less than perfect (not a response hole but small dip), with lesser consequences in terms of perceived sound...

    Richard

    ISO EQUAL LOUDNESS CONTOURS Acoustics 226-2003.pdf

  6. #276
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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  7. #277
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Need some more 14 AWG speaker cables for upcoming tops hookup, whereas use mostly 12 AWG for bottoms.

    Local store had what seems like the perfect cable. Added two of these in cart then continue transaction, checking cart info: specific model number dissapeared and store SKU number vanished from item description! Only generic 14 AWG cable info remained. Don't want a generic speaker cable, but rather the nice one shown to me, not a more or less equivalent... Smells like substitution again, bait & switch trick?, cancelled this thing, goodbye.

    Then found a well-known cable retailer, not convinced though about their cable quality in view of very low price, and missing specs. Web site boasts Free returns, nice if cable not ok. Been there before though, so checked their policy: return shipping at customer's expense and restocking fee applies in many cases. "free returns" BS again. Staying away from that one too.

    Don't really like in home environment speaker cable that looks more like stage mic or AC cord, but nevertheless purchased that in person from a local place i know. Certainly more expensive than above ones, since its sold $ per foot length, but quality appears to be there, no bullshit and have the cable's specs. Can't say for sure from feeling the jacket with fingers if the wire pair inside is twisted or not, specs don't say. I'll assume they're not twisted pair.

    At the same time got another mic cable for my kit. Needed only 10 ft or so for this one, however price difference between 10' and 15' being only one dollar this was a no brainer (25 ft + $3. All with same touring grade cable & connectors). Having already some 25' & 15', i tend to go for 15' allowing length flexibility since they can be used alone (less cable in the way) but may also be connected end-to-end with another cable if need be, like with other mic cables. Using a 25' when only half or so is needed often leaves the remaining cable in your way to trip over...

    Also got a few more banana plugs, similar type to a dozen already have and like (left on pic), but quality of the new ones (right on pic) sure isn't what it use to be with the older AMX plugs. New ones are smaller shaft, thinner plastic, lighter, not as heavy duty as before.

    "Fit and finish" is ordinary, acceptable but not great. Machining shows a little around the wire holes, and some color plastic rings for polarity are too narrow to fill their space properly. Must be the new normal I guess ... Anyway they'll do the job for lower power tops, just a little disapointment quality wise.

    Richard

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  8. #278
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  9. #279
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    ANOTHER DONKEY...

    Gave another shot at finding some home like 14 AWG speaker cable for my tops. Home Depot Can.(!) has a nice one "in stock" sold online only. 100' roll, high-purity copper, clear jacket, color coded for polarity, etc. (right side on pic). Local store pick-up, check. High hopes...

    Went to get it yesterday, box handed to me seemed pretty light for a 100' roll, opened it right at the pick-up counter, what's in it: a 50' roll of 12 AWG (left side on pic), worth about half the price... Don't need more 12 gauge, already have a 100' roll shown previously. So batting average for Web purchases remains low...

    Depot lady said mistakes rarely happen (not to me, lol) and reimbursed the purchase. Still shows "in stock". Then added "You'll need to order it again, it should be correct the 2nd time." Should be? Not good enough... I've had it, yard is full, can't take more, i'm done searching for better looking wires in home, lot of time for a mirage still.

    I'll stick with, and get more of, the 14 AWG Digiflex speaker cable pictured in previous post, not "homestyle" and sexy, but at least i can actually get that one painlessly, see it, touch it, feel it...

    Richard

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  10. #280
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    I'm NOT a hirsute speaker wire believer.

    Picked up 100ft. of 12 ga twisted underground lighting cable .

    It was enough for the 2 runs to the big speakers in 2 systems.

    Had a LHF member come listen to the 250ti's and remarked "you must have some
    fantastic amp and cable running those"


    Nope ,,,just my BGW 750D and thrift store penny/ft. cable.
    It's the new Mother Nature takin' over
    She's gettin' us all, yeah, she's gettin' us all

  11. #281
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Sea,

    I don't attribute to speaker wires magical or wonderful properties either. However, i do appreciate when such cable is well made and doesn't look gross in a room. Moreover, if wiring specs are crazy, e.g. capacitance, this may affect audio performance hence why i try to find cable made for speaker duty, not just any type cable.

    Your cables, if i remember you mentioning before, are routed under the floor?, much less visible.

    Have a number of pairs of speakers (bottoms/tops biamped), most to be connected, then many of gross looking black AC cord type cables like the Digiflex, sure won't go unoticed. I can't route these under the floor. So it will look more like a busy performing stage in the room...

    Not aware of around here thrift store selling penny/ft. 12 or even 14 gauge cable. But don't have time to search left and right for these either.

  12. #282
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post

    Your cables, if i remember you mentioning before, are routed under the floor?, much less visible.

    YES..

    Not aware of around here thrift store selling penny/ft. 12 or even 14 gauge cable. But don't have time to search left and right for these either.
    This is essentially what I got ==>> https://www.amazon.com/500-ft-Landsc.../dp/B009YWZWH6

    I didn't even look for it. The little boss was shopping with me and she grabbed it.
    It's the new Mother Nature takin' over
    She's gettin' us all, yeah, she's gettin' us all

  13. #283
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Wolf,

    RE I didn't even look for it. The little boss was shopping with me and she grabbed it.

    OH! My boss doesn't grab electrical supplies or audio stuff for me, lucky guy.

    From link, what you basically appear to be using is large size lamp cord (lighting cable). There's a lot of folks around the globe that use lamp cord wiring to power speakers with good result, including me. In present temporary audio setup i use 5-6 ft. lamp cord type 16 gauge wires, no complaints doing so, other than one cable being white, the other light blue jacket... Similar to young fellows wearing two different color socks, LOL

  14. #284
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMC View Post
    Wolf,

    RE I didn't even look for it. The little boss was shopping with me and she grabbed it.

    OH! My boss doesn't grab electrical supplies or audio stuff for me, lucky guy.

    From link, what you basically appear to be using is large size lamp cord (lighting cable). There's a lot of folks around the globe that use lamp cord wiring to power speakers with good result, including me. In present temporary audio setup i use 5-6 ft. lamp cord type 16 gauge wires, no complaints doing so, other than one cable being white, the other light blue jacket... Similar to young fellows wearing two different color socks, LOL
    that's why my basic black is OK. 12ga and meant for underground burial and actually rather pliable. Good for 20amps.

    Yup, she's a good girl , her probationary period will be over soon (50 years)
    It's the new Mother Nature takin' over
    She's gettin' us all, yeah, she's gettin' us all

  15. #285
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Sea,

    AH! I must have ended her probationary period much too ealy then, my mistake... lol

    Have a larger 12 gauge underground feeder cable also to power pool pump in backyard. Pretty thick jacket to survive burial, solid core wires and stiff! (see arrow on pic, small white is 14 AWG, red cables normal 12 AWG). That cable is routed separately because it doesn't fit in normal wiring holes made in the 2"X10".


    Btw recently took some time to test the Aphex 10/4 audio interface. What a nice device this thing is. I'll report on that soon. Yup, 10-4 Sir! Working on getting another good used one in the near future...

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