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Thread: KM2

  1. #241
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Dear Ian Mackenzie,

    I have one question for You: YES or NO

    Are You at position, the JBL models 4343, 4345, 4350 are all big messy mistakes.
    Dolly Partons a'la 4430 etc are waay better.

    One word?

  2. #242
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Dear Ian Mackenzie, VOL 2

    And I had another previous question as well, I pleased proper answer (as a advise from very experienced person)
    but got just a politician's speech!?

    So, I repeat my pervious question (and my bad, of cause 2261 is 10'', my typo) :

    / 2261H has ca3X lighter cone than 2216Nd, and it can be assembled vertically below horn.
    Do You /everyone/ say that 2216Nd with its 140gram MMS - placed off-axis from HF - is wiser than fast MID exact below HF? /

    Did I make some addition typos (because english is not my native language) or is question itself in basics un-understandable (in this forum).
    Or is M2 last and ultimative result the Human Being made in that civilization and here it ends
    (when The Heavenly 2216Nd was used already in S4700 while ago)


    What I'm thinking:
    Coud You imagine that pig-killing noises all over the world studios, where people all have 2CH Crown amps and suddely JBL kicks on market a 3way!?
    And why JBL had to even think about that - because folks in these studios sit at distance 10ft and these 2216s barely move.

    If now put M2 into 'barn' or on stage, and keep 'melting' at 1000+W some hours (even not so long) , then...



  3. #243
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    As always it depends... not really a question you can awnser with yes or now.
    From my POV and with my philosophy for my room circumstances I would say YES...

  4. #244
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    My previous post was hardly political.

    It was a polite way of saying itís time to get you hands dirty and work out these unknowns yourself.

    Itís the only way you will succeed.

    Your a very arrogant in the present company btw. You remind me a someone from Texas who had acquired KenRick Sound monitors and proclaimed he was the new messire of JBL.

    You need to come out and describe exactly what your proposed system is such as the horn specifically, the baffle layout, how far the compression driver is behind the horn?

    This goes on from time to time and itís a big freaking time wasting exercise for all concerned unless you give full disclosure.

    You also need to elaborate on what sort of music you listen too, the source quality etc.

    Itís not as simple as it might seem.

    Where you are located and the environment relative to the loudspeaker has an overall impact on your design. A tight compact array is nearly always going to win out if you are seeking more than just a really loud wall of sound.

    In a diy situation multiple drivers will give you accuracy but the listening window will be limited and balancing four drivers is an art.

    If you are proposing to use a 2 or a 1.5 inch driver on 650 hertz radial horn a 10 inch driver is not going to do anything a 15 inch mid bass woofer canít do.

    If you are proposing a 10 inch mid bass driver or a mid range driver then it would be an advantage matching a 1200 hertz horn with a 1 inch or 1.5 inch driver.

    The M2 wave guide is so far more evolved than a traditional bi radial horn that with its loading and coverage from about 700 hertz the crossover is seamless. The 2216nd by virtue of its cone profile, the pulp mix and the tech in the voice coil and the BL curve put it in a class of its own. The wave guide with this driver make a very coherent system with unique capabilities.

    The older 70ís monitors were all multi way but they canít match the M2 for its wide sweet spot which is important in studio mixing.

    In diy you have more choices but you still have compromises such as more crossover points and the challenges that brings. If you donít care about the listening window then continue to deliberate over your driver choices.

    If $ is not an issue consider a Volt 2 or 3 inch dome midrange above the 10 inch driver and a Scan Be tweeter. You might consider a Volt 2500.4 10 inch driver which is one of the best 10 inch drivers available period. A number of studios in the UK and Europe use Volt based monitors and they are sometimes mixed with Jbl drivers. In fact a Jbl 2216nd would go nicely with a Volt 3 inch dome range driver.

    https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/bm25004-10/

    The hardest thing for you will be blending the drivers and no a dsp crossover wonít do all the thinking for you.

  5. #245
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Ian is spot on.

    Anti, you have received plenty of feedback and suggestions from very experienced people here in the LH forum.

    Yet you return with new forms of the same question, namely how would your guesstimate driver combo perform. Those answers does not exist as no one have walked down exactly that isle. These are systems and the output is the sum of all the input variables just as Ian is pointing out.

    It's not politics, it is science. And a little bit or art.

    If you are interested in building a top-notch I suggest that you re-read this thread from the start. It's all there.

    If you are interested in building cool furniture you are in the wrong forum.

    Time to pay attention.

    //Rob
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  6. #246
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    If you are interested in building cool furniture you are in the wrong forum.
    While I am vaguely interested in speaker design, I think cool furniture might be far more interesting. Any ideas where I might find a ďcool furniture forumĒ? Preferably one that isnít dying a slow death of server crawl.


    Widget

  7. #247
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Anti K

    You have to decide what you want to do, we can't do it for you. Looking at the size of your space you might be better off doing a normal size system to cover a small curtained area and then go with a distributed sound system to cover the balance of the area.

    That said I have a feeling this is going to be another one of those threads to no where.

    Hello Widget

    Here you go!

    http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  8. #248
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti K View Post
    Dear Ian Mackenzie,

    I have one question for You: YES or NO

    Are You at position, the JBL models 4343, 4345, 4350 are all big messy mistakes.
    Dolly Partons a'la 4430 etc are waay better.

    One word?
    Your asking the wrong question.

    The 4430 was the smaller sibling of the larger 4435.

    Jbl introduced the bi radial configuration to regain market share of the Urei monitors which were dual concentric designs. The approach was about obtaining a more constant power response for the studio recording industry. At the time the studio market was evolving and JBLs product got the attention of that industry and it was in production for a long time.

    Back in the 1970ís large multi way sofit mounted monitors were on trend in the recording industry. Mainly to impress clients. The HiFi customers aspired to those systems and so Jbl retained a strong cult following with their multi-way consumer blue baffle monitors till this day. Businesses such as KenRick Sound continue to recycle these systems by re conditioning vintage systems found on Japanese auction sites.

    The blue baffle monitors as they become known retained strong popularity in Japan and throughout Asia and Jbl continued the 4 way monitors till the mid 1990ís. Three way blue baffle systems such as the 4367 designed by Greg are an important part of the consumer product line today.

    As l said earlier buy some 2261 drivers and evaluate them with some proper measurements using a few different configurations. Listening tests are also very important.

    You will find the baffle dimensions and the location of the driver on the baffle critical to obtaining a smooth response in the 300-1200 region. Ideally you want the midrange within +-2 dB.

    Compare them with the 2216nd and decide for yourself the direction you want to go. Be prepared to make at least one prototype before settling on a final design. If you are pursuing the diy multi way system you will need to accept a dsp based active crossover such as the BSS. There is quite a learning curve to using these dsp based crossovers effectively. It might take 12 months to come up with adjustments you are satisfied with after you build your project.

    The alternative is to clone a known design. The benefit to you is itís been designed, tested and building it is relatively straightforward but it might take 12 months to complete.

  9. #249
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Jbl introduced the bi radial configuration to regain market share of the Urei monitors which were dual concentric designs. The approach was about obtaining a more constant power response for the studio recording industry. At the time the studio market was evolving and JBLs product got the attention of that industry and it was in production for a long time.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...me-1-Number-15


    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...peaker-Systems


    Required reading.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  10. #250
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    /.../ get you hands dirty
    /... / Your a very arrogant

    I will get my hands dirty asap the parts are here.
    IF YOU , or someone else feel Iím ARROGANT ; I APOLOGISE!

    Because Iím not and donít want to be.
    What I want, is advise.
    copy-copy-copy is not advise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    consider a /Ö/ 2 or 3 inch dome midrange above the 10 inch driver and a Scan Be tweeter.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    Ian is spot on ;
    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    Anti, you have received suggestions
    Wow. THIS IS THE SPOT. Scanspeak tweeter and 2inch dome -
    ... aside 4inch Beryllium CD + 2x15íí bass. Everest cabinets. 2x18'' subs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?4408-JBL-Technical-Notes-Volume-1-Number-15
    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?7852-Improvements-in-Monitor-Loudspeaker-Systems
    Rob
    Thanks Rob! I was reading all this.
    The most interesting part was of cause how implement two woofers into Everest cabinets.


    Directly from text:
    Both low-frequency drivers in the double system are identical to the driver in the single system except for lightened conesÖ

    Second important says JBL made a horn:
    Ö paying attention to power response and off-axis response, a monitor with fewer "coloration" and improved stereo effects can be realized. The use of a constant-coverage horn allows the designer to create a two-way monitor that surpasses three- or even four-way monitors in several of these important aspects.

    First part desribes phenomenom I was paying attention here for a long time - mass matters

    Second part shortly says: JBL GOT A HORN, better than old tricks, therefore result is more adequate and image wider.
    OK. Good! Iíll install into EVEREST cabinet contemporary horns as well

    PS. Thank You MrWidget and macaroonie, Your suggestions here and/or PM was supportive and constructive.

    Ian, all the questions You placed me here, the location, room (I attached even detailed plan), the baffle layout, all answers are here in this thread.

    One thing we in same exact position:
    You suggested copy M2 with implementation as 4435 into Everest cabs. How You imagine that. Screw a M2 lens above one woofer of two, awry on the one wing? I'd say it would be ugly as F.
    You are right - I do care cool furniture!

    Last edited by Anti K; 04-04-2021 at 04:29 PM. Reason: typos

  11. #251
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    JBL have a line array box VTX V25 , 2 x15 , 4!!! x 8" mids and 3!!! x D2.
    I believe the bass drivers are 2216 or similar.
    All DSP managed as they have to be not the least of the reasons being that the venues can change every other day.
    Anti has by most standards a huge spce to fill. I think he is on the right track for a few reasons. The implementation of a high power mid driver makes sense.
    Sharing the load , a little less on the bass driver and a little less on the HF handled by a high power mid makes complete sense to me. What he chooses to do with the UHF remains to be seen
    This is not a normal sized studio control room or living area so the normal rules really don't apply. He is I suppose straddling the gap between domestic or studio playback and venue / dance club systems. Hence my comment previously about joining the queue for a Funktion One rig.
    Yes , he has a longish road to travel but I really believe the potential is there even with the mods. In fact the mods might even better the original , may I remind everyone about Harman marketing bean counters.

    My main concern is just what he is going to do to tame that giant space. 6 5mtr long sofas , 200 scatter cushions , loads of those rugs that look like pebbles , some suff from Sweden , self assembly.

    One other thing , Anti is mainly using a translator for his posts as far as I can gather. Please make allowances for that.

    M

  12. #252
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Anti,

    Arrogant people as a rule donít know it.

    Now, If you sketch a drawing the immediate room in which you propose to locate the loudspeaker system with dimensions that would make any questions and answers useful. I am not going to run around after you.

    Loudspeakers that are powerful with a wide bandwidth are never beautiful pieces of furniture. The one that pretend to be donít really work.

    Someone in Europe is already marketing a dual woofer version of the M2 in a vertical alignment. I think he is Danish. I think it looks fine.

    Of course your completely entitled to do what ever you wish. But please do NOT ask the forum questions we cannot answer. You need to do your own research and development on the project.

    Your notions of what you believe are important are not necessarily valid. Your best to talk to an applications engineer. But they are likely to say you need to do you want own research and development. If you believe your notions are valid why ask?

    Jbl do NOT publish technical data on many of these pro drivers. Reason. They are used in their own proprietary designs. They tend to regard diy as bad for business. How to get around this? Obtain the TL parameters if you can find them and compare to published data from another manufacture like Beyma or 18Sound who do publish data. You will find drivers like the 2216H are designed for Array systems that are used in large multiples flown from a stage. Why? Because Arrays are the bread and butter of the events industry. They have an FS of around 75-100 hertz and operate in a compact enclosure with sensitivity in the 94-96 dB range from 75-100 hertz up to 20,0000 hertz. They are mid bass drivers designed for Arrays.

    The pro mid range drivers are mostly designed for horn loading and have sensitivity in the +100 dB region. They have small Xmax with a bandwidth of 200-1500 hertz generally. They are not necessarily smooth response drivers as are they are designed to couple to a horn and then EQ or are used in stage direct radiator SR systems. Itís old school Pro PA and fairly specialised.

    This is why you need to measure your drivers so you know what you are dealing with. First learn how to measure the TL data and FR curves with REW and a mini dsp mic. That is the beginning of a diy roll your project. Your otherwise flying blind. Itís really not hard at all and you will be enlightened with the understanding of your drivers and the possibilities.

    The next step is to consider your design options.

    1. Roll your own design. Challenging and will require a lot of trial and error experimentation.

    2. Follow a proven design. Far more straightforward and risk of non completion is relatively low.

    If you are daring you might consider a front loaded horn on a pair of 2216nd with a horn above it.

    Such a system exists as the OMA Monarch. The efficiency is over 100 dB. You can design the horn in Hornresp. The horn wings are 130 cm square and load the system to about 65 hertz. Below this room boundaries add room gain and you end me up with an elegant solution that looks great.

    https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/monarch

    The other possibilities include the Living Voice System and of course the Altec VOT systems.

    These industrial designs may appeal to you.

    You are far better off picking a known design and running with that.
    If you like to play make it modular.

  13. #253
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Anti K

    You have to decide what you want to do, we can't do it for you. Looking at the size of your space you might be better off doing a normal size system to cover a small curtained area and then go with a distributed sound system to cover the balance of the area.

    That said I have a feeling this is going to be another one of those threads to no where.

    Hello Widget

    Here you go!

    http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/

    Rob

    My thoughts exactly. Sonos.

  14. #254
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    1 - You need to come out and describe exactly what your proposed system is


    2 - you give full disclosure


    3 - You also need to elaborate on what sort of music you listen too, the source quality etc.


    4 - Where you are located


    5 - Now, If you sketch a drawing the immediate room … I am not going to run around after you.
    Who is arrogant?

    1 - You command me to write here a full detailed specification of drivers and cabinets I plan to use? OOKaaY, but You break in from open door.
    2 - ? am I arrested ?
    3 - You tell me, for what kind of music M2 or DD67000 are designed for!?
    After You disclosure The Big Secret I will certainly listen only that music. Written to M2.
    Until that I mosly listen contemporary Progrock and JazzFusion from Tidal, mostly Master glty. Later tracks from 2019,20 are often even hard to describe a style, but if male and female vokals are on stage with band and smaller orchestra, brass plus some synthesized sonds add more there, the Mummies Scanspeaks and 2 inch domes fly defenitely in fron t of the next wall.
    But sometimes Eric Satie or my homemate composer Arvo Pšrt as well.
    Do I have to glue the Monarch-style wings to my Everest cabinets now?
    4 - Do You ask my home address?
    5 - Look, mate, computer have mouse or traskpad. Scroll the thread or click previous sheets and You find sketch(es) of room and layout of speakers, if You are familiar with JBL production, a little zoom and You get even understanding what horn and drivers...


    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    - Jbl do NOT publish technical data
    I have.
    Long list of JBL Proffesional drivers. For now.
    To avoid Your next freek-out I'm telling forehand I got it lately and it didn't come from here any LH forum members. TS parameters etc. Not SPL of cause, it depend - as we know - from frequency and thats impossible (or senseless) write one constant number into table.
    I needed the list to make choices and I got it.
    Last edited by Anti K; 04-05-2021 at 01:15 AM. Reason: wrote speakers, meant drivers

  15. #255
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    This is not a power game. You ask for help remember?

    Your had a few beers too by the sound of it.

    So we are now getting down to the nitty gritty.

    I am the hifi salesman and we don’t see customers because of Covid.

    My next question is do you sit and listen to your music or do you roam around and listen.

    Also do you play your music at modest, loud or very loud levels.

    Remember be nice as l only get paid on commission.

    I am asking questions because getting the right sound is not about a yes or a no answer. Sometimes the customer does not no what he needs and that is frustrating so we ask little questions.

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