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  1. #421
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    With the power of DSP that was not previously available I think this project has a head start. AntiK has done a lot of background work re drivers so he should be off to the races.
    I think development might be hindered somewhat unleess the room acoustic is advanced considerably.
    With all of that in mind I say start up that Husqvarna , It's time to get the cabinets ready for lunch.

  2. #422
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    With all of that in mind I say start up that Husqvarna , It's time to get the cabinets ready for lunch.



    Widget

  3. #423
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    or live with /... / not the best possible solution.
    That's nicely sayd. That's the result I reach as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by macaroonie View Post
    With all of that in mind I say start up that Husqvarna
    Did, dust and shit everywhere! (You get Your pics in good seat )
    Not unfortunately raw Husqvarna (despite, it was really stylish, the boots and helmet incl.), but was need to purchase certain Bosch tools with price of pair of here named drivers , but works great...
    Dusty and ugly work. Will post when pic takes understandable shape. Otherwise, 'the experienced' will rant on me how dare you abuse holy 4367 lens and Everest cabs...
    Both get abused, and cabs and lenses.

  4. #424
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Hey ! Us boys in the cheap seats need to see the gory details. C'mon man

  5. #425
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    What did you buy from Bosch as a matter of curiosity. I have more or less gone all Makita for my tools. Fantastic service life , spare part supply etc. Having said that I have a Bosch jig saw 20 years old it's done crazy arduous work and still keeps going.
    Old school reciprocating Jiggy made by Scintilla in Switzerland.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    they got hold of some start of art drivers from JBL a long time ago. The entire mess never got finished.
    I'd still rather start with the best drivers I could get ahold of as a starting place, rather than try to massage yesterday's drivers into a modern vision. I personally might not be able to fully realize their potential, but at least it will be down to my shortcomings rather than "...if I had only used XXXX instead".

  7. #427
    Senior Member Jakob's Avatar
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    Hi there,
    Interesting project! If you are looking for 12 inchers, it seems some people have had luck using 2204 and 2206. I myself have used the 2202 but only in horns and there at least i found it too "nasal" sounding. This is Lansing Heritage but if JBL cant provide what you think you need, you could check out other drivers that seems highly regarded in the diy community like AE TD12M or Beyma 12p80nd.

  8. #428
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    I'd still rather start with the best drivers I could get ahold of as a starting place, rather than try to massage yesterday's drivers into a modern vision.
    That's right!
    Went throug journey of different engineering know-how of producers and things were getting better and better. Finally, best, like best option on table ... was like copy of certain JBL!?
    There is hard to find wiser construction at moment than JBLs Differential Drive. Question is only combo implementig them with each other.

    JeffW, I'm not going back, only ahead.

    Will leave options open with replaceable faceplate...
    (got very curios what is inside of Neo JBLs, IMHO there is way to go to tune them up - below)

    ____________________

    I do my (Mains ; SUBs would be additionally) project with mids 2262 (basically Neo 2206) and for 'higher-lows' 2x2265 (above 70Hz they bang sharp as real drum, no occasion they are in vertecs.
    Question only is overlap these two at region 250-290Hz, have heard 'this is very difficult' so much already 'from very experienced' I got bored of that.
    Those both together outperform 2216Nd in their own sections (I'll leave the tech BS).

    NB: the new era didn't come with just only DSP and state-of-the-art dead-silent digital amps, capable nealy low as DC as you like vomit during listening...
    New era is also in optimization of produce process.
    JBL's Differential Drive has ND magnet inside the VC. It's vice-versa previous constructions. It means two excellent features:
    - VC is 'naked' to outside where 'cold' and excellent heat conductive material meets it, as close as possible - heat is blown away with best possible way.
    - The second interesting aspect should be for DIY - The VC outer diameters are same! 2265 engine mated 2262 cone!?

    2216: Bl= 18,9 MMS=140
    2265: BL=19,5 MMS=110
    2262: Bl= 18,0 MMS=68

    Just mention (I'm not a pertol-head; just tech-fan), one of our Mercedes we got with 'little modi' to show rear lights to original AMG with ease, result's insane.
    Today's contemporary producers, other words, leave back-door open because of their own reason to implement easier modifications ... but you can use it as well, if do not afraid.

  9. #429
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakob View Post
    Hi there,
    it seems some people have had luck using 2204 and 2206
    Yep, imho memeber ROB was here who sayd long time ago - some people can even swear on 2206, take this and done
    Seems it's going kinda that way in first tuning.

    PS: I see Your avatar talk lot of Your bias

  10. #430
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti K View Post
    4350/55 is to me the coolest speaker ever made.
    The steps between ways, radiating surfaces according to steps. No-matter-what-engineering!

    ( let leave people with screaming wifes, children and dogs - their opinions about beauty and size doesn't matter )

    Just trying reincarnation it in new form - simple as that.

    When Lens are done and I'm still stucked in MID, then just kick JBLs 1x2262 and 2x2265 in there and done.
    They both do, when ways are separated (70-270 / 270-1100Hz) their own part better than 2216Nd.

    While MID lies in 1,5 ft3 box, rear vented (can be closed whenever) I can basically kick in there whatever Driver.

    2x2265 likes Everest cabs more than 2x2216.

    (no arque, 2216 outperforms when needed just ONE for EVERYTHING up to HF)
    Hi Ant K,

    I have to agree with You that 2202 + 2441AL&2311&2308, sound very nice (to my opinions and taste), but in bass section I prefer 2245 in 4345 (for me more reluctant sound). A fiend of mine has both of them so I have an opportunity to listen. Some of my friend prefer 2206 (even less sensitive then 2202) instead of 2202 as a mid-bass driver. As I would have separated sub-bass section, 2x2265 may be would be enough.
    If mid-bass would be omitted some kind of spreading horizontal dispersion would be welcome (as EON 615, for example), may be not, as Your listening position is almost inline with the speakers axes.

    regards
    ivica
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  11. #431
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANTI K
    4350/55 is to me the coolest speaker ever made
    Quote Originally Posted by ivica
    but in bass section I prefer 2245 in 4345 (for me more reluctant sound). /... / Some of my friend prefer 2206 (even less sensitive then 2202) instead of 2202 as a mid-bass driver.
    Agree, 18'' is a real thing. And thats why there would be 5th channel, some 2269-s.
    These cannot accomondate (as You ćan imagine) into same cabs, thats why I'm not talking about them yet.

    I have had read too, lot of people love/prefer 2206 over 2202. Will start with 2206's Neo-sibling 2262H.
    While MID-cab is versatile, can re-change there basically anything later.
    Seems Eff is not the No1 topic anymore - as long the heat exhaust is properly done. Amp, well, kick today huge and damping factors are 1000 and up.
    Greg Timber named, the new drivers are bad - Efficiency = 0,5 !?
    But, sorry, we are talking here about things around 2% and up.
    Ansient screemers 5-6% (yep, if you have tube anno 1960)

    Jacob just drop here hint
    AE TD12M, very HiEnd ; it's really something! Le 0.2! (just what happens after 2 hrs and 500W in closed box)
    Ian Mackenzie hinted new 18Sound3500.
    ! interesting trénd I waited already long ago - lowered Eff and rised MMS! (because: look at development of amps). Do we need Eff=6 anymore?
    But both drivers have something common and outstanding: insanely low Le - Ideal for 2-way!
    (JBL 2216Nd-1 has also outstanding low Le...)
    ____________

    If I let my MID-driver make just 270-1100Hz, it doesnt make deep moves, higher Le doesnt bother as much high freqs (as it doesn't in Vertecs).
    Basically, what happens when Le is high - drivers phase graphs changes while moving stongly.

    Anyhow 2262H works in Vertecs up to 1200Hz and doesnt loose (change) its features after hours of work at near-max power.
    It tell me way more than any 'paper'.

    What surprises me, the DIY all around the world use so few of JBL pro stuff (incl 2262). It's on the very TOP no doubt when properly implemented.
    Or, do they sit in their tiny chambers and listen. Then, we have different situation and the suggestions of that view of corner doesn't work with me...
    ____________

    For Fun: Found in web a DIY 'proper thing' as well , 2206 used as MID
    Faceplate plan feature same logic I'm on.
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  12. #432
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Was seeking info everywhere possible.
    It wasn't as detail there before, certain spec. uploaded in the end of 2020, so updated stuff.

    https://jblpro.com/en-US/product_fam...formance-audio

    VTX_F12 is LF=2262H plus HF=2430K,
    Cross around 1,5kHz !
    (as 2262 is not 'raped' so low it more cleanly can go upper, as well 2430 doe's not have to deal with area it's not very much able to)

    With VTX_F12 graph is straight as ruler, beaming graph show stable ca 100 degrees dispersion across the crossover area nicely.

    F these Re, Le, VAS, FBI, CIA
    2262H and 2265H feature (if tune them right) so parallel phase shift from 100 to 700Hz it just amazing. And it's not 'accidental' if there is a lot of gear on stage...
    And for me it's like gift to bend them together.

    I feel I'm getting close to my theories what I was thinking long time, JBL itself gaves anwers.
    (and they obviously cannot make BS production, not satisfied for musicians...)

    And new M-series monitors are interesting, quite new gear.

    2 PICS / DIFFERENT THINGS:

    - VTX F12 graphs

    - VTX M20 photo (2 x 2261H)
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  13. #433
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Sub_2269H and Bass_2265H integration.
    To make phase shift (as possible) constant (in certain region) with Cab sizes and Port tunes. To make possible the DSP to do the rest with (constant) delay.

    2262H and 2265H are already tuned together ca oct +/- across crossover FR with constant delay 0,1ms.
    (accomondated into Everests)

    Indeed, it's not easy and takes time [the constant mantra from 'very experenced' ] and patiency ; but to start with saw and clean sheets of veneer, without engineering is imho senseless.
    Assumption to make things work with DSP later is, IMHO again, the drivers and cab tunes obey logic.
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  14. #434
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti K View Post
    Sub_2269H and Bass_2265H integration.
    To make phase shift (as possible) constant (in certain region) with Cab sizes and Port tunes. To make possible the DSP to do the rest with (constant) delay.

    2262H and 2265H are already tuned together ca oct +/- across crossover FR with constant delay 0,1ms.
    (accomondated into Everests)

    Indeed, it's not easy and takes time [the constant mantra from 'very experenced' ] and patiency ; but to start with saw and clean sheets of veneer, without engineering is imho senseless.
    Assumption to make things work with DSP later is, IMHO again, the drivers and cab tunes obey logic.
    Hi Anti_K,

    I think that real amplitude and phase responses of the driver(s) in the box, including the environment influences ( large surface nearby, edges, etc) would change expect-able curves, so only final measurements would give You real situation. On some DSP driven networks phase characteristics can be changed if too large comb effects would present.

    regards
    ivica

  15. #435
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    A small break in all this theoretical talk.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NU5QGZ9p6A

    The drummer is WoW Wow

    enjoy . M

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