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Thread: KM2

  1. #301
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Making this much harder than it has to be.
    It certainly seems that way to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    This thread is going no where.
    The signal to noise ratio has certainly dropped precipitously.


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  2. #302
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Making this much harder than it has to be. This is a very basic and a simple decision. Look for a current driver that meets or exceeds the ancient 2123. You do not need the power handling built into the Vertec drivers. They are for no holds barred SPL to cover large venues.

    I don't know why you have not moved on and at least modeled a pair of 2216's or whatever you plan on using. Chances are any midrange cabinet, .5 Cu Ft for a 2123, could easily be compensated for with some extra fill and a slight but overall insignificant change in output down low. If you are using DSP than any change simply doesn't matter as it could be EQ'd.

    This thread is going no where.

    Rob
    100% agree with You this time - this thread is going nowhere.

    I am in trap:
    If I go cabinets as is 2x2216Nd (as Mr. Widget also pointed ... however he built himself NOT 2-way , he has own reasons) I cannot go back to MID, because it does not fit up there (below horn).
    If I go with MID (rebuild front) I cannot go back previous. Because 15inches are then already moved lower on front board.

    I got good hints here from people I really belive of what they did.
    All the rant is going just around this MID.

    All other is just punch of amp monoblocks and crossing actively DSP.
    The last part - if i'm not really able (if was with iron, something maybe can do with soft, lol) - can ask, buy, learn (knowledges, blocks, soft).
    We live in digital world anno 2021. I live at least.

  3. #303
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    looking for mid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    The signal to noise ratio has certainly dropped precipitously.
    Widget
    MID
    Sent a simple signal out while ago.
    Now it's lost in noise, indeed.

  4. #304
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I can't do that for you. What horn are you using with the Everest cabinets?? What's the LF cutoff, directivity?? Are you going CD or old school?? Are you using the cabinets as intended? Do you have a source for the throats for the Everest horn or are you doing another horn?? What compression driver so you can get the throat correct if you need to make Everest throats??

    I have no clue what you are doing and I doubt anyone else does. I don't ask others to design my DIY efforts. By the time I am posting I already have a basic overall design in mind with specific drivers already in the plan.

    This is a complete speaker system either a 2 way, a 3 way or a 4 way. The driver and horn's and waveguides chosen will be determined by that almost exclusively.

    There is nothing wrong with vintage drivers. Some can be had for little money and can be used for proof of concept and then upgraded. You are using DSP so you can change drivers out very easily compared to a passive network

    Start making some decisions you have more than enough info in this thread. If you are not sure plan for all 3 and pick a set.

    I was surprised you purchased Everest cabinets without a clear plan. I wouldn't have unless I knew I was doing double 15's and had run simulations in that cabinet volume and was sure it would work.

    We obviously do thing differently and that's fine but the bottom line is you have to find your own way.

    Best of luck.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  5. #305
    Senior Member Anti K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    1) This is a very basic and a simple decision. Look for a current driver that meets or exceeds the ancient 2123.
    2) I can't do that for you.

    Actually, it is not bacis and simple because of very simple reason. There is no one.
    At least JBL. Some BMS was, I passed it until I measure JBL. Hope very much to not get disapointed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Start making some decisions

    Best of luck.

    Rob
    Did-did. Long before this mess, rant and novels start here. Next post will be a photo.
    Thanks for luck.

  6. #306
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Re: Looking for mid

    I’m not sure you need a mid but you seem to be hell-bent on going down that path. As I said 200 posts back, I would try it without the mid first and see how it goes. Adding another driver into the mix complicates your life tremendously.

    2 cent advice. Always try to keep it as simple as possible adding only what you need when you find that you do have a need.


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  7. #307
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Well, this thread has had some interesting moments.

    When the Everest cabs eventually came into the picture, I thought ... cool, just build some Everests with 2216s a Radian BE and adjust to the drivers and taste.
    This is for the previously defined listening space/area, not necessarily the entire 'barn', correct? And for fun/challenge of doing something impressive, audio-wise?
    Rock-on, and good luck with your midrange integration path (full of decisions, measurements, changes, rabbit holes, etc...). Looking forward to your photo documentation.
    Could always re-use the drivers for more M2-like self-built cabs, later. 4-5 of those in your listening space would be interesting as an audio surround-sound system (not everyone's cup of tea).

    Funny, there is a big luxury industry in the US (Likely elsewhere), of taking perfectly good, new equipment/instruments/furniture and banging it up, then charging -significantly- more for the privilege of owning something that looks old or "vintage" ... there's obviously a lot more to it and some is very well done, but the Everest cabs reminded me of that... or the RatRod phenomena. Above all, have fun. Report back what worked and what didn't.

  8. #308
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    Excellent post Grumpy

  9. #309
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    Well this certainly is an amusing thread but I gotta ask, what is a Greek Princess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    ...

    I will say this once. Leave the Greek Princess out of your posts unless she wants a spanking.

  10. #310
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote “The 2216’s are very capable and have an extremely smooth response to nearly 2 kHz. No peak at all. * It would be a major mistake including a 10” in the mix. The 2216 can easily reach a 750 Hz crossover point. The added complexity and time alignment issues brought on by the 10” driver will greatly overshadow any possible benefits.*

    My simple advice is Don’t do it!

    You can quote me if you like. *I really think he is making a big mistake.

    Greg”

  11. #311
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Quote “The 2216’s are very capable and have an extremely smooth response to nearly 2 kHz. No peak at all. * It would be a major mistake including a 10” in the mix. The 2216 can easily reach a 750 Hz crossover point. The added complexity and time alignment issues brought on by the 10” driver will greatly overshadow any possible benefits.*

    My simple advice is Don’t do it!

    You can quote me if you like. *I really think he is making a big mistake.

    Greg”
    Hi Ian and Anti K,

    May be 2265 x 2 per box, can be used, if 2269 or 2242 are applied in separated boxes as subs.
    Applying 2.8V to 2265 x 2 (connected parallel in the box) would produce about 103 dB SPL on 1m distance.
    So, as I previously have said, the problem would be compression driver (horn loaded) as the mentioned JBL or
    Radian 1.5 inch driver, that have produce about 110dB SPL/1m with 2.8V applied, but if wide wide dispersion horn
    would be applied some amount (I would expect about 10 dB) of "constant directivity EQ horn compensation" has to
    be applied, and the mentioned CD drivers would produce higher THD at high frequency if SPL of 110dB/1m would be
    expected.
    I would suggest to look at
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post435547
    again.

    Regards
    Ivica
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  12. #312
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Ivica,

    Nice to hear from you.

    As a first “diy” loudspeaker project simplicity should be a priority.

    What this guy thinks and what he will end up getting together is the reality. The bizarre thing about the approach to not pursuing an Everest clone with alternative components was the OP’s polarised view of the inclusion of a midrange driver and dismissive behaviour towards recommendations. That being the case why open a thread if you are so enamoured with your own opinions.

    ebasiiras

    Sünonüümid: ebaõiglane, ebaaus, ebasiiras, siiras, osav, kaval, kelmikas, salakaval, petlik, kaval, vale, vale südamega, mitte aus, mitte avatud.

    Frankly, he would be better off going into a shop and buying something.
    Last edited by Ian Mackenzie; 04-11-2021 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Translation

  13. #313
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    For those reading this thread and saying what’s all the hubbub about mid range drivers l recommend reading the links below. Troels Gravesen is a highly respected loudspeaker designer based in Europe with numerous designs to his credit.

    The selection of a midrange driver is far from trivial as Troels explains:

    http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm

    http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Lou...m#MEASUREMENTS

    As can be seen from the text and clear examples a highly specified driver may not in fact be the most suitable or only choice in practice. Sound quality is important but how will the driver behave in a different baffle arrangement, is it compatible with the rest of the drivers and how easily can the crossover be arranged?

    The only way to work this out is with some experiments and evaluate some different drivers for comparison. Given the importance of the midrange reproduction and the desire to incorporate a midrange driver care should be taken to ensure the best choice is made.


    Nagu tekstist ja selgetest näidetest nähtub, ei pruugi kõrgelt täpsustatud draiver olla tegelikkuses kõige sobivam või ainus valik. Helikvaliteet on oluline, kuid kuidas käitub juht erinevas vaheseinaseadmes, kas see sobib kokku teiste juhtidega ja kui hõlpsasti saab ristmikku korraldada?

    Ainus viis selle saavutamiseks on mõned katsed ja võrdluseks erinevate juhtide hindamine. Arvestades keskklassi reprodutseerimise tähtsust ja soovi lisada keskklassi juht tuleks hoolitseda parima valiku tegemise eest.

    http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Lou...m#MEASUREMENTS

    http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Lou...II.htm#DRIVERS
    Last edited by Ian Mackenzie; 04-11-2021 at 04:31 PM. Reason: Translation

  14. #314
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    as far as I remember the midrange driver was necessary in this build because of the lack of a big horn, which is able to load the horn driver lo enough to couple it with the bass driver. But I wouldn't say that is the case here...
    Go with the 2216nd, I cannot think of a better 15inch on Paper.... to of them is plenty enough. Big Horn and compression driver and you can skip the headache by the midrange driver easily. Why overcomplicate things if you can go an easier route. Most of the time the simpler configurations and systems performed better, but that's only my experience.

    And stop overthinking, just start doing something. I would be suprised if the 2216nd won't satisfy you...

    Best regards

  15. #315
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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