KM2

[macaroonie]

+1

It can be very satisfying and rewarding to tackle a modern DIY project, but short of building an accurate clone, the likelihood of matching the performance of a modern JBL or other top flight system is unlikely without a lot of work, prototyping, and a bit of good luck. Even with the excellent test equipment we have available these days, most of us do not have the test facilities that Harman and the other big boys have.


I have built my own system that I prefer over the M2, but I wouldn't pretend that it is a universally superior system. FWIW: It is also a more costly system than buying factory built M2s.



Widget

Very true at every level missing one thing which is that the room is the most significant contributor to the overall sound. This is where DSP is yer buddy.
I think JBL went down a wrong path with the 2235 with it's mass ring. Flippant comment but why not add an extra 30g to the HF dia so that they would sing together. Just kidding.
Betcha 2234 is not too far away from 2216 in many parameters as is oddly enough 1400pro / nd.
JBL have made some dogs over the years. We all know that and the why.
I hope our new friend from Estonia can develop his systen to his great satisfaction.

Regds M

[Kreativlos]

+1

It can be very satisfying and rewarding to tackle a modern DIY project, but short of building an accurate clone, the likelihood of matching the performance of a modern JBL or other top flight system is unlikely without a lot of work, prototyping, and a bit of good luck. Even with the excellent test equipment we have available these days, most of us do not have the test facilities that Harman and the other big boys have.


I have built my own system that I prefer over the M2, but I wouldn't pretend that it is a universally superior system. FWIW: It is also a more costly system than buying factory built M2s.



Widget

Hey Mr. Widget,

What System is your own system?
Because the trend today is, that 2 way is the way to go and that super tweeters are not necessary for true to life reproduction and I cannot really agree with it. I guess the M2 is a very very good speaker, still need to hear it though, but there is no way that the D2 can reproduce triangles and cymbals like a proper tweeter like the JBL 2405 can...it's just physics imo. Even tho I've got to admit the quality of the tweeter is not nearly as important as the quality of the midrange driver and the woofer... those really have to be as close to perfect as possible... would love to hear your opinion on that
Btw I think 4 ways with a mid cone is a compromise I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice for the benefit. Too many problems with integration for too little improvement. In my mind ideal would be 15" Woofer top notch plus 2" Comp driver down 500hz and a tweeter of ones taste. I would also insist on good directivity across the fq range but that is also up to the room behavior and taste...

Best regards

[Mr. Widget]

Hey Mr. Widget,

What System is your own system?

My system is a more traditional system somewhat along the lines that you suggest as an ideal. While I am very pleased with the performance of my own system, on a theoretical level, I actually agree with the direction that JBL has taken.

The main reason I have followed the path I have is that I wanted to maintain a fully analog system. To do so at a very high level becomes quite costly though and you have to accept certain performance trade offs. That said, I would submit going the route I have taken you avoid other performance trade offs. As many others have said, loudspeaker design is all about juggling the compromises.

To answer your question though, here is a link to my Project Widgets.


Widget

[Kreativlos]

My system is a more traditional system somewhat along the lines that you suggest as an ideal. While I am very pleased with the performance of my own system, on a theoretical level, I actually agree with the direction that JBL has taken.

The main reason I have followed the path I have is that I wanted to maintain a fully analog system. To do so at a very high level becomes quite costly though and you have to accept certain performance trade offs. That said, I would submit going the route I have taken you avoid other performance trade offs. As many others have said, loudspeaker design is all about juggling the compromises.

To answer your question though, here is a link to my Project Widgets.


Widget

Wow very very nice speaker! The initial try would be my kinda ideal Setup, maybe a different comp driver and bass, since td-4003 is just unobtainable and I like the looks of the TAD 1601x a lot but hey that's just cosmetics right. Would also go active analog. Thanks for sharing the information!!

Best regards

[Anti K]

sebackman: I would argue that 2216 is not the new 2235
JeffW: The other 14 and 15 inch drivers you mention - are they readily available for purchase new and have replacement part support? The 2216 is and does.

Exactly!

Anti K, M2 is a "system" where every part is part of the success. If you start altering things (even little things) it will not be an M2, and in most cases not even close. The beauty of doing so anyway, is that you can chose any combination of drivers and cabinet that suits your ears and wallet. That is what I do.

Exactly!
What makes You think I'm doing that for any other reason but 'beauty of doing' ?
I didn't say never I'm doing M2. Or Everest. Or better

I hope our new friend from Estonia can develop his systen to his great satisfaction.

Thanks macaroonie!

_____________________

Just to be clear: All I'm saying is, plan purchase some drivers with good reference : what ARE ACTUALLY IN SALES as well!
Like JeffW pointed nicely.
The M2 lens are in sales, too. Nothing criminal.
... And put things together, trying avoid mistakes (the big ones). What depends on highs, then reading this forum it seems to me - integrate a 4'' with good reference is easyer than D2.
And to be honest, like 4'' CD too.


Thread name KM2 is just collecting hints from ones of the best systems, which obviusly are the M2 and K2 IMHO.
That's what I'm talking about. I'm not thinking over M2 or K2, but vice-versa.
Trying not to overthink!

PS: Mr. Widget's speakers are nice indeed, especially appreciate things are polished to the last bolt...

[JeffW]

I'd advise jumping on in there and building something! These threads can go on and on, competing opinions weighing in on various aspects - but you seem to have a decent grasp of what you're after. If Design A doesn't cut it, go to Design B. I guarantee you those Widget speakers weren't his Design A. A journey of a thousand miles starting with the first step and all of that...

[Anti K]

I'd advise jumping on in there and building something! These threads can go on and on, competing opinions weighing in on various aspects - but you seem to have a decent grasp of what you're after. If Design A doesn't cut it, go to Design B. I guarantee you those Widget speakers weren't his Design A. A journey of a thousand miles starting with the first step and all of that...

That's a good advise!
Already did, btw.

15'' chamber ca 3 cu.ft, 18'' chamber ca 8cu.ft. Cross 75Hz.

[macaroonie]

A little off topic but some of you might find this interesting. I locked on to this guy a couple of years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ltZR9IWXaE

Obviously there are plenty of vids about Tallinn , this is an alternative view.

[grumpy]

An interesting mini-tour. A reminder of places I've been. Thanks Mac.

[Anti K]

But we have spectacular old down mostly from 11-16 century. UNESCO world Heritage List!
One fact: at about 1500 was built one tower of church, it was in this time World's Highest! 157,8 metres. (Cheops pyramide was this time 146,6, now 137 metres)
Ansient Greek myth describes how Sun-god Helios dropped part of Sun. Because if was seen in the sky of Greek that Sun's part is falling down - a metheor. Far later Greek sailors tryed to sail as north as possible. In some point they survived - this is the edge of land, rough seas and nothing.
End of Land : ULTIMA THULE. And there they found some people 'who arrested a Sun's part, put it under ground!' . The meteorite was seen in the sky in Greek and dropped down here... ca 1500 plus/minus 30y.
____________________

This paricular video shows our sadest part of our country. I personally don't want to go places like that, it reminds me times when there was only one sausage (item, not variety) in regular shop.
Was even times, to purchase food was allowed when You got 'tickets'...

Who was thinking other way, even got different haircut, was arrested. To go out with black leather jacket with rivets was sure thing to spend a night in concrete chamber...
Sallary was couple hundreds of Rub and $1 was 100 Rub on black (secret) market.

But somehow people smuggled in Vinyl LP-s (You can imagine the 'price' of this LP then...) and there were half-secret 'marketplaces' where audiofan's gathered together every sunday and changed Vinyls for recording. And of cause police (Milicia) made raids there and peole run like CRIMINALS. Because they have Vinyls... !?

It's so stuped I'm writing now this, and it's even to me unbelivible unless I've seen all this...
That's why I do not like these kind of videos.

And this time mid'80 I made my Highlight. I was ca 14Y old. Started my audio journey. Got somehow Sony-Walkman-type player with radio.
And from this time I name my journey of building stuff: player was so expecive (relatively) and also headphones - it was out of question to break something. And for recording from radio (our neightbor contry was free Finland) I was recording music from their some Rock Radio. But - I didn't have additional plug!!!???
I made a 3,5mm plug handmade, with handfile, under zoomglass, all contcentric rings and 3 wires and insulators, pronze parts material from ... pen.
The body made from casette plastic with soldering iron. Ugly but worked.
Had to!
I thank my father despite hard times got me best possible soviet amps, speakers etc...

Sorry about offtopic but I cannot otherway but react.

[macaroonie]

@AntiK Sorry if that touched a nerve , it wasn't intended to .

The guy that does these vids is quietly critical of the crazyness of the Soviet era.
For me it was interesting to see this. I have not been to Estonia / Tallin but I have been to Riga and was really pleased with the welcome from the people.
Amazing place and Tallinn is on my list for sure.
I strongly recommend any members here to visit the Baltic states. You will not regret it.

M

[Mr. Widget]

Sorry about offtopic but I cannot otherway but react.

Thank you for sharing. You have further filled in the color of the image of Estonia for us.

In 1970 as a young American tourist traveling with my parents I was able to visit Moscow and what was then called Leningrad. It was very eye opening. Seeing large stores with mostly empty shelves, grand boulevards with almost no cars being swept by old women sweeping with brooms made of twigs and people lined up outside of shoe shops exchanging shoes to get a matched pair that fit their feet because the store had such a limited supply left me with a lasting impression.

No country is perfect or has a past to be completely proud of, but it seems Estonia has done a pretty fine job. With luck the young people in Russia today will eventually take power away from the corrupt oligarchs.


Widget

[srm51555]

Yes, thank you for sharing.

[1audiohack]

....But - I didn't have additional plug!!!???
I made a 3,5mm plug handmade, with handfile, under zoomglass, all contcentric rings and 3 wires and insulators, pronze parts material from ... pen.
The body made from casette plastic with soldering iron. Ugly but worked.
Had to!...

I cannot express, even in my own language how much I am impressed and appreciate this! Amazing and astounding are a couple of words that come to mind.

Thank you for sharing.
Barry.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think ... I do not why but have such a strange feeling, there is a tiny possibility: JBL made some prototypes before they sent 9900 and 66000 into production line. I think this is a tiny possibility they listened them a'bit before, Yo

Thanks, but no thanks. Fellow Rob and Dr.db, I'll pass the 10'' part. Not because it's a bad suggestion but;
Two reasons:
- have in mind build up full system from zero: enclosures, drivers (buyable ones, new ones), dsp-board, Purify boards for higher, nCores(as they are bridgeable) for lows, all these all in my own-made racks. Plenty of fun ... I'd stay with 3-way this time.
- another reason (a good one): if JBL itselt already placed 15'' below CD in ones of their best contemporary systems, in ones best systems on the Planet, than I do not want to try be smarter (I'm not crazy) but just try to clone - or not even clone - but rather take hints from there, the arrangement.

Andy

One of the biggest mistakes you can make buy coming here is to draw conclusions or predict outcomes of a proposed loudspeaker project based a observations of a Jbl commercial system.

Jbl makes a number of prototypes and the industrial design is very much a part of the end acoustic result. Because the consumer has to like the look of it and it’s voiced to work in a variety of listening situations that some compromises into the final consumer design.

Take for example the DD67000 and prior DD66000. They were designed for triamp operation according to Greg Timber’s and the rear terminal plate has extra holes under the foil cap. But it had to be packaged as a full passive/ Biamp system for marketing purposes.

The Everest woofers are not as light or as fast as a pro mid bass driver. But a pro mid bass driver does not have the ultra low distortion or bass of the 1500 AL series soa drivers. I think the Everest woofer blends very well when the system is properly set up but not all users agree!

Do you are best to make some modules for the woofer , horn and uhf drivers and swap around until get get what works in YOUR environment. The room, where you put the enclosure and where you listen from is the single most influential factor of what you hear.

There are some basic rules. A simple two way system will never match the linearity of a multi way system at the lowest and highest frequencies. This is why Jbl added a helper woofer and a uhf driver in the Everest.

If you like solid deep bass your looking at either an additional sub woofer, an extended bass woofer and a multi way system or a helper woofer. If you want crystal clear highs and wide dispersion you will need a uhf driver. Don’t fall for opinion and glorious after market beryllium diaphragms that fall off above 10,000 hertz.

Frequency response measurements are not the be all and end all. Listen and keep listening.

Be prepared to be flexible. No successful loudspeaker is set in stone online or on the drawing board.