Originally Posted by Anti K
Glad to hear the upgrade took smoothly and you didn’t have to reboot yourself.
Widget
Glad to hear the upgrade took smoothly and you didn’t have to reboot yourself.
Widget
I have no idea on your selection of drivers.
In the event you are still considering look at the 2250
It’s a high power mid range driver with differential drive.
I am not sure if it’s on the JBL TL list as the website is too slow to down load it.
They use in in this :
http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/T...1,%20No.29.pdf
What you need to be aware of is that some of these differential drivers used in the little Array Boxes have a relatively low sensitivity and they will not keep up with the dual 2216nd woofers. They stack them in Arrays to increase the sensitivity.
If you are going to limit the response of the 2216nd to 100-150 hertz (nuts) then a 12 inch mid bass driver a crossover frequency of 1000 hertz would be appropriate.
The 2261 you fell in love 😻 with is l suspect in that category because it has to operate down to 100 hertz in the systems it was designed for. Some of these drivers have a titled response and you don’t want that either.
Small diameter drivers ( Under 12 inch) being tasked to produce a wide bandwidth towards lower frequencies are inherently less efficient than an equivalent size midrange driver.
The 2250 is a true midrange driver and can be ordered from Reconers.
In any case you will need to measure what ever you decide on. Play it with a full range program material and you will soon understand its optimal range.
Do You see the lights? Do You hear the voices? Other sympthoms.
Where are You take all this!?
What makes You bet I limit 2216 at 100Hz !?!?!? and there starts MID.
Do You read at all the other people write. Plan is use 2 or 4 psc of 2269 and they do the job up to 70Hz.
EVEREST cabinets already by default do not have 2 x times inner volume of M2 cabinets.
If I cut the low section (for what the 2216Nd is tuned for) and cut as well the higher section (where the 2216 is tuned as well),
rises a question:
maybe 2265 then from 70Hz to 300Hz. More savage, no padded down for 2-way near-field use.
Thinking for the future. (for me!)
_____________
I answer that MID You rised because it's concerns maybe other fellow member of forum as well. Why I made some choices. Or, to be clear, had to!
This is not a forum of butterfly collectors or trainspotters. This is JBL forum.
I made a question here and got silence. Just nobody DIY used 2250, 2261 etc.
Had to made SOME decision on my own. To start somewhere. If it doesn't work, then next and here is goes.
There is nothing to do with love, pragmatic digging in several official documents. Pro drivers lists, Vertec specs etc.
if You dig into conf You can math several features of components even from ended goods specs.
Now, The 2250 you fell in love:
2250 vs 2261
Peak: 1400W vs 2400W
Sensy: 96 vs 105 (this is what Vertec show - 2psc 111dB sensy)
Cone SD: 204 vs 363cm2
Pe: 350 v 500W
Xmax : 3 vs 6mm
Qts: 047 vs 031
All says me, 2261 is insane savage.
2261 You name it low, or midlows, YoLoW, MyLowe.
Driver doesn't care! Only numbers. The same crazy force motor drives 3X (sic!) lighter cone compared 2216. Sure, it's fast! Other thing is peaks and stuff. Will see.
2250 as much I know is used in Vertec's only and these models are DISCONTINUED. Now replaced with 5'' , it basically means crossover point is rised as well, which is basically means, THIS low previously described is not just low...
NB. 2250 is used in Vertecs as compression cone driver, plus, compressed waves are burst into waveguide as well.
What would be the actual result of the 2250 true midrange , if 'take it naked', nobody knows.
You didn't use them, hold them in Your hands, measure them. Have no graphs to give me. Basically nothing.
But You suggest to get me these for $1000+taxes (my money) across the Atalntic - because You bet.
If You have a large format CD in good waveguide and result is stunning. Takeing off the waveguide AND THE FIRST CAMBER OF CD WITH PHASEPLUGS AS WELL, and put this in the system 'naked'. Nice bling 4'' dome throne up there of the speaker. What a stunning view!
#kabuki
What You get in sound? Shit, in one word.
Hi Anti,
I hope you are well.
There appears to be a misunderstanding of your readings of my previous posts.
The information and guidelines l have posted are of a general nature only as your project is one of a kind and no prior testing has been done to validate the design based on a prototype. In the case of a JBL designed loudspeaker that has been fully researched my responses can be specific and factual.
A few pages back you insisted l give you a Yes/No response on one driver versus another without any means of proving one over the other in your specific project. It was agreed you needed to work this out subjectively yourself.
Since then it’s unclear what your doing or where you need support if any? Perhaps you are discussing it off line.
Your requirements
Your modifications of the Everest enclosure or your requirements are unclear. To date you have advised is your not doing an Everest clone. You have mentioned the 2216nd throughout the thread but your current intentions are unclear?
The facts
The net internal volume of the Everest enclosure is 9.5 cu ft3 unmodified.
Jbl 2261H
Attached is a spec sheet of a Jbl system VTX20 using two 2261H drivers
Attached is a simple simulation of the 2261H in a 10 litre sealed enclosure in the next post.
Referring to the VTX20 data sheet active sensitivity of the low section (2261H) is quoted at 93Db for 1 metre at 1 watt ref 2.00 volts. Note the sensitivity is referenced to 2.0volts V2 /R = watts, 4/4= 1 watt.
The simulation in the following post yields a similar sensitivity to the spec sheet. Drivers with H typically have a RE of around 5-6 ohms. Therefore the native sensitivity of a single 2261H driver would be closer to 90-91.5 dB for 1 watt at 1 metre ref 2.83 volts.
Why is this important?
The point being a single 2261H will require a high output power amplifier output to maintain a proportional sound level with the other drivers such as the woofers. A + 3 dB in spl requires double the amplifier power.
If you plan to use a lower power hifi amplifier for the midrange you are going to have to accept a compromise in the dynamic range of the system.
You quote of a higher sensitivity is invalid.
I will also point out that one of the risks of rolling your own diy loudspeaker is that you have the responsibility of confirming all the data and driver specifications yourself. Manufacturers often change specifications without notice.
The driver will take 600 watts of power however you may not want to do this? Typically higher levels of distortion will arise from lower sensitivity driver being driven with high power than a higher sensitivity driver as a lot of that power is dissipated in heat.
If you only need a bandwidth of 300-450 to 1200 hertz other drivers with higher sensitivity may be considered and more appropriate. In pro applications the VTX20 is designed for operation in clusters from 60-120 hertz crossover frequency.
2261H simulation (bottom attachment)
In the attached simulation the 2261H can be used in a 14 litre vented enclosure with an F3 of around 70 hertz. The F3 in a 10 litre sealed enclosure is about 140 hertz. It would be wise to use a sealed enclosure for midrange applications. The sealed enclosure resonance is about 115 hertz.
In the above application the 2261H can be used in 10 litre sealed enclosure from 230 - 350 hertz. The cone excursion is less than 2.5mm above 150 hertz with a 300 watt power level. The spl at this power level is 116 dB.
2250H simulation (second from bottom attachment)
The 2250His used in horn loaded designs and direct radiator sealed enclosures. (Horns have a sealed rear chamber.)The attached simulation shows the 2250H in a sealed enclosure of just 7 litres. The F3 is about 300 hertz. The enclosure resonance is about 200 hertz.
In the above application the 2250H can be used in 7 litre sealed enclosure from 350-500 hertz. The cone excursion is less than 2.5mm above 150 hertz with a 300 watt power level. The spl at this power level is 120 dB.
2216nd simulations (first and second attachments)
The 2216nd can be used in a bass reflex ported enclosure of 130-150 litres. Assisted bass tunings can be implemented in an enclosure of 130 litres with an F3 of 25-30 hertz. In the simulations demonstrates dual 2216nd woofers in an enclosure of 260 litres tuned to 33 hertz and 26 hertz. The 26 hertz tuning can with assisted with a low frequency boost to achieve an F3 of 27 hertz or lower.The unassisted tuning has an F3 of 36 hertz. This is typical of the Jbl 4700 consumer system which used the 2216nd.
Key takeaways
The point of demonstrating these simulations is that you have some options and comparisons that you can use to make informed decisions and determine your project design as you proceed. Both drivers represent different benefits and trade offs.
One of the key takeaways is that that these 2261H and 2250H drivers can perform the midrange function is relatively compact sealed enclosures.
Secondly, subject to what you decided to load the Everest cabinets with and your modifications to the front panels and the horn aperture you may be able to configure dual 2216nd woofer, a compact sealed enclosure and a horn. A modest amount of fill (fibreglass insulation) can me applied in the upper section of the enclosure to increase the net volume. One inch of fibreglass on all surfaces except the front baffle will increase the net volume by 10 % with an enclosure of this size. Additional fill will add additional net volume (ref 4435).
As l mentioned in an earlier post the cost of making up some test / mock up enclosure will pay you back in making well informed decisions prior to making any important changes to the Everest enclosures.
I hope this gives you some certainty around your options with the Everest enclosures.
Edit. If you are really passionate about your multi way loudspeaker project and it sounds like you are then don’t allow yourself to be hamstrung on your best driver options or baffle layout with the Everest cabinets. In the grand scheme of things they won’t matter in the end.
For example if you believe your project is best served with a 12 inch mid cone then do it. The 2202H is a highly driver btw and some forum members swear by them. The DV driver are fancy but not the only choice by a long shot.
As l stated in my first post the responsibility of validating your design rests with you. Other risks such as couriers, insurance, import duties and fee’s are something we all have to accept and contend with.
Lastly, if there is something your unclear on of a technical nature or don’t understand ask.
Ian
Whatfore. I'm a simple guy with own amp, want to buy pair of VTX20. Use them as passive.
What I have to understand, I don't undertand.
Or, what Greg Timbers wrote at 12. April 1985?
PS: Use Command+Shift+4 simultaneously, it's a shortcut make .png screenshots from mac screen: don't have to mess up with camera.
Where is the confusion?? 101dB 2.83v 1 meter 8 ohm version. That's a standard measurement.Or, what Greg Timbers wrote at 12. April 1985?
As far as the VTX 20 those are single elements for an array. There may be a minimum number of elements. May not recommend singles.
The specs?? Who knows looks like a typo. It's either Bi-amp or Quad not sure what passive means. They also run the 10's in series in "passive " mode.
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
Exactly. The confusion is: THIS IS a standard measurement.Where is the confusion?? 101dB 2.83v 1 meter 8 ohm version. That's a standard measurement.
/... /
The specs?? Who knows looks like a typo.
Rob
But Ian somehow bends his long stories and found out 2261H (he never saw or touched it) has 90dB sensitivity - and thats why this is bad choice.
Instead there is black-on-white written on tech sheet - 2,83V / 1W / 1m (as Greg's one). But he likes another row...
111db (its typo), has to be 101dB
In several Vertecs, where this driver is doubled, Low section shows 101-102dB , then how the heck one driver could be 90 dB!?
Look at post 284. Guy suggested align basses vertically.
Makes me feel guy systematically messes up. Why.
GRAPH?
( at 2,83V / 1W / 1m )
Don't write Your novel.
And as always, I have straight questions to You:
- why You suggested me assembel Lows vertically (in EVERESTS!?) the post #284 ?
- did JBL do nothing for 36years and 2123 form y 1985 (!) is THE THING
- is there AT ALL , just SOMETHING, from JBL contemporary list at least as good as Vintage was? If so, then just stop Your novels - and advise that Mid(Low).
Of cause I have 'limited understandigs' how to implement into my project 2'' dome Midranges, Scanspeak domes etc.
You shoot blind and then named me arrogant.
I apologized as a man (if You felt bad)
After that You just mumble something about Your net connections... and keep going.
Now You name me 'limited'.
If I read ALL Your novel, it's really hard to find part helps me ahead.
Getting ANY helpful info, I just purchased myself the drivers. By hope, as JBL uses them CONTINIOUSLY in Vertecs, maybe these guys are not complete idiots, with 'limited understandings'.
And, I wait my ordered drivers (the idiot's choice) to take a close look and measure. But You say, no-no-no, you have to measure!
Thanks a F*** lot!
To Your 'limited understandings' : Sensitivity is different at different frequencies. If it has 90dB@80Hz then its not impossible at all, it has 100dB@1000Hz - this driver has quite low Qts which indicates my bet.
That's what I want to figure out.
I attach here below a extract from another Vertec, from the VT4889 tech sheet.
There is witten black on white 99dB sensy. Typo? Sheet is screwed up?
Two 15'' Lows (sounds logic reach 99dB)
To remain at the same level there is intalled:
FOUR (!) peaces of 2250 at Compression Cone conf, compression exhausts burst furtermore into waveguide, to augment even MORE SPL.
Only with this trick these 8'' can be equal parners for two 15'' SPL.
You suggested me ONE(!) 2250, naked, no compression. Aside 2x15''. Do You sabotage ?
Or are all these Vertec engineers 'limited' ?
In that case, You have to write them as well a novel. We can at least go to the concerts normally.
Ian is of course right again.
Here are 2261H Thiele & Small parameters (scroll down).
THIELE SMALL LOW FREQUENCY DRIVER PARAMETERS AND DEFINITIONS1016-1406 (harmanpro.com)
Here you can make a conversion from efficiency to sensitivity (with certain limitations).
Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
2261H seem to be approx 93 db 1W/1m which is the same as 2,83V @ 8 ohms.
Thank you for sharing the key combo short cut. May I return the tip with suggesting trying the excellent tool Google search. You will find it very helpful and it does not return unwanted recommendations formed by years of experience as you get here.
Good luck
The solution to the problem changes the problem.
-And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder
Why haven’t you posted the whole Vertec technical document? Trying to prove what is now a repetition of the same question without complete evidence is pointless, a waste of time and futile.
You have apparently ordered your drivers so move on.
I will say this once. Leave the Greek Princess out of your posts unless she wants a spanking.
Making this much harder than it has to be. This is a very basic and a simple decision. Look for a current driver that meets or exceeds the ancient 2123. You do not need the power handling built into the Vertec drivers. They are for no holds barred SPL to cover large venues.
I don't know why you have not moved on and at least modeled a pair of 2216's or whatever you plan on using. Chances are any midrange cabinet, .5 Cu Ft for a 2123, could easily be compensated for with some extra fill and a slight but overall insignificant change in output down low. If you are using DSP than any change simply doesn't matter as it could be EQ'd.
This thread is going no where.
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
fellow member sebackman just suggeted: 'May I return the tip with suggesting trying the excellent tool Google search'
Not first
Surprise!
Got it. You cement it.
Over these 20 sheets You even didn't figure out what 4''BeCD I plan to use despite there are only 3 possible choices and 2 doesn't count.
😳 🥵 😱
Or what?
Ban? OK. The life I had went thouh I dont afraid or surprised no puzzys no guns.
Then there would be just no photos of the under-construction project as well.
3 post earlier You just promised end the novel. And then posted 2 more. Condolences.
Anti = Don't write You novel.
Ian = Okay
for start, while choosing drivers - prefereably JBL ones - I got a 'arrogant novice' name (not bad i'd say!) and :
What did Mr Timbers sayd about my project exactly - when You PM me and hinted it's basically BS?
Did You called him specially because of my project? To convince him to convice me leave the MID section?
Could You, with huge experiences, please just f*** tell me?
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