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Thread: the 2018 CES Unexpected Get Together.

  1. #1
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    the 2018 CES Unexpected Get Together.

    Well CES 2018 has come and gone. A couple of my guys have left the shop here to go help load out the show.

    Did anyone here attend?

    I didn't go this year, the crowds, parking and traffic,, it's just hard for me to really want to.

    I was fortunate to have some interesting guests come over to the casa for various audio reasons however.

    No names but I had a boutique horn designer, a couple of recording engineers, a boutique microphone manufacturer and one of his engineers and an exotic materials compression driver parts engineer come by.

    We ran several sound systems and the one that everyone was really attracted to was the Community Light and Sound all horn loaded four way system on the patio. Whooda thunk?

    We ran the JBL 4365's powered by Techron 7560's. They were liked.

    Danley SH50's and eight TH Mini sub clones save the use of 2206J's in them powered by Crown I-Tech 5000HD's, they were also liked.


    And the afore mentioned Community stack that is 11 feet wide, five feet tall, five feet deep and weighing in at over a thousand pounds I swear.

    It has four 2240H's in Boxer Bass horns, four 2220J's in Leviathan bass horns, two 2482's driving BRH90 radial horns and two 2425's driving SRH90 radial horns.

    It is currently powered by what's was lying around, two CE4000,s a D75 and a D45 with a pair of dbx260's doing the DSP for eight channels, and an IPod source direct into the 260's. And this of all things, was the system everyone seemed to love, much to their suprise I really think.

    One guy said, "It looks like something you have to throw raw meat to and keep the children away from,,, but it plays so nice!" That made me laugh.

    Another said "I think that's the best bass I have ever heard, just spectacular." He didn't say it to me, I overheard him.

    It was really funny, 10-20 minutes with the 2365' and about the same with the SH50's and sometimes hours with the Communities. The weather sucked, it was cold and rainy so it wasn't the most comfortable spot at the ranch out there but people who didn't plan to stay, did.

    I know I am not alone, true full range clarity and huge dynamics are still something many desire. I guess I'll have to keep that rig together out there.

    CES was fun this year, I didn't even have to go!

    I will get a picture of it this weekend if anyones interested.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  2. #2
    Senior Member RedCoat23's Avatar
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    Would love to see a pic of the 'animal'

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    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    One guy said, "It looks like something you have to throw raw meat to and keep the children away from,,, but it plays so nice!" That made me laugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedCoat23 View Post
    Would love to see a pic of the 'animal'
    found it:
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    Fascinating systems you have Barry!

    What about the 4355-inspired system ?

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    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    That is a good representation of it Thomas.

    I left my real camera at the shop over the weekend. I tried with the iPhone camera but these things being big and jet black just donít show up well.

    I will get some this week.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  5. #5
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    The second part of my post went unnoticed below Animal:
    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Fascinating systems you have Barry!

    What about the 4355-inspired system ?

  6. #6
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    I realized that I had left that question unaddressed, and then forgot to come back to it.

    Nearly everyone looked at the 4350ís and said either ďI had a pair of thoseĒ or ďI have heard thoseĒ.

    Understandably people want to hear what they have not yet heard. Being guests, I just let them choose.

    My experience with people who work in live sound is that they have a very different value set than the typical audiophile. Many have their own references that were recorded or engineered by them and it seems like a large format studio monitor is just something to warm up with.

    Itís not necessarily about crazy loud, itís more about dynamics and integration and it has to really jump when you give it some gas.

    Many people just donít seem to know or remember how loud a sax, trumpet, trombone or a drum set is and most home systems, even large ones will not convincingly reproduce these instruments at or near live levels.

    The Danley Sound Labs website has some fantastic recordings you can download of things you know what they sound like. Like a Harley running up and down the street but the best, is a very dynamic recording of fireworks. Itís easiest to just Google them and download them.

    Hereís a challenge to anyone reading. Download these, and carefully, (read sneak up on it, be careful not to break you speakers) attempt to play the fireworks back at realistic levels. You might say that has nothing to do with reproducing music and while that might be true in a sense, it might surprise you to see how far off the dynamic mark your system is. The crack of the big ones should startle you. Be prepared to be dissapointed.

    My 4365ís with 770 Watt monoblock amps donít even get close. The 4350ís do a little better but honestly even they are unsatisfying. The Danley SH50ís with 1600 Watts per with eight subs driven with 10000 Watts of Crown power are getting there but a blindfolded person would never believe they were at a firework show. The front loaded Community/JBL/Crown system will bring out the neighbors, and they donít look at me, they search the sky. Itís not great, but itís getting there.

    I am not trying to showboat, at all. Anyone who knows me well knows thatís not my personality. What I have discovered is even my 4365ís are, while great at reproducing studio music, not as dynamic as I would sometimes like them to be. Live has an edge to it that gets engineered out of it nearly all the time. Hell listen to the Dave Matthews Band live in Central Park. The percussion is amazing but listen closely, snares donít sound like that in real life. Itís direct micíd with a compressor and a gate to minimize cymbal bleed and it sounds more like a click.

    I get that this is the nature of recording something that can be engineered for audio and video playback but thatís not what it sounds like in person. Also I get in a setting like that if you had a stereo pair hung above and a mic on the kick, you would never hear the hi-hat or anything else not played loud. It the current nature of recording I guess.

    I am not a recording engineer and I donít play one on TV so I may be wrong about a lot of things in the above ramblings but the patio rig really gets it for me and the folks who do this for a living, they actually stay and play. There must be some audio truth in it.

    Itís funny, and kind of sad that I rarely turn up anything in the house anymore. Oh I listen plenty, but I work around the limitation. Itís just not that satisfying. The patio rig doesnít have to be loud at all to sound live. This audio journey is a real trip and I often wonder where it might end for me. One thing for sure, it wonít be small!

    All the best,
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    My experience with people who work in live sound is that they have a very different value set than the typical audiophile. Many have their own references that were recorded or engineered by them and it seems like a large format studio monitor is just something to warm up with.

    It’s not necessarily about crazy loud, it’s more about dynamics and integration and it has to really jump when you give it some gas.
    Amen!

    Large vintage Altecs and Klipsch speakers all have more than their share of issues, but have large followings due primarily to their ability to bring life to music with excellent dynamics. They may not be as dynamic as your “monsters” but compared to the typical “audiophile” speakers with all that they offer, the audiophile speakers just can’t compete in this area.

    For me this is why I prefer my Everests to so many other fine speakers. As we’ve said so many times, every speaker is a compromise. We need to find the speaker that checks the most boxes important to us and will fit our rooms and budgets.

    Back on topic, I gotta get down to Vegas and give your Monsters a serious listen.


    Widget

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    Member Mitchco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post

    I am not a recording engineer and I donít play one on TV so I may be wrong about a lot of things in the above ramblings but the patio rig really gets it for me and the folks who do this for a living, they actually stay and play. There must be some audio truth in it.

    All the best,
    Barry.
    Ex live sound and studio recording engineer here... and agree 100% I have an acoustic drum kit in the same room as my playback system, and after many toy speakers, my current JBL 4722's (with JBL 2453h-SL replacing the stock 2432's) and pair of subs, digitally triamped with some watts behind it, is just able to keep up with the dynamics playing along with the drum kit. Like you say it is not the sheer sound pressure level, it is the clean dynamics that is the juice.

    Pic of a smaller Community sound system at a club in Vancouver many 420's ago (that's not me in the pic, but the club owner and can't remember if the bass bins are Community tho). When turned up that M4 midrange horn would make you blink every time the snare hit and the kick coming through those bass bins felt concussive to the chest. Sure miss that sound... Would love to see (and hear!!) your patio rig.

    All the best, Mitch

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    Senior Member RedCoat23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    found it:
    Name:  17292.jpg
Views: 194
Size:  108.6 KB

    Fascinating systems you have Barry!

    What about the 4355-inspired system ?
    Nice POS, Nice Guess I deserved that

  10. #10
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedCoat23 View Post
    Nice POS, Nice Guess I deserved that
    There was no direct pun intended
    It is the metaphorical representation I had in mind of Barry's patio system: an animal with long teeth and a pair of drumsticks.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8aGlOj2VFo

  11. #11
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Hereís a challenge to anyone reading. Download these, and carefully, (read sneak up on it, be careful not to break you speakers) attempt to play the fireworks back at realistic levels. You might say that has nothing to do with reproducing music and while that might be true in a sense, it might surprise you to see how far off the dynamic mark your system is. The crack of the big ones should startle you. Be prepared to be dissapointed.

    My 4365ís with 770 Watt monoblock amps donít even get close. The 4350ís do a little better but honestly even they are unsatisfying. The Danley SH50ís with 1600 Watts per with eight subs driven with 10000 Watts of Crown power are getting there but a blindfolded person would never believe they were at a firework show. The front loaded Community/JBL/Crown system will bring out the neighbors, and they donít look at me, they search the sky. Itís not great, but itís getting there.
    Funny you should mention that firework recoding in relation to your 4350 clones equipped with TAD TM1201 midwoofers.
    When I was attempting isolated comparisons between the 2020H and TM1201H, the most revealing test I found was this very recording, and not for its dynamic.
    In my test conditions (lowish volume, bandwidth limited with filters and EQs tailored to get a pretty much identical acoustical response) I found the TM1201H sounded far more realistic: it was like listening to a real firework far away, through an opened window...

  12. #12
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Well get on down here Mr. Widget.

    I too love the Everest's. I really should get mine together.

    Hi Mitch.
    Bought your book and am working though it. Good job there!

    Those are indeed Community Boxer Bass Horns in your picture. That had to be a mean system by any metric!

    I have some M4's but don't have any of the big horns for them like in your picture, yet.

    Hi Thomas.

    That TAD mid is a winner for sure and for the reasons you state, just very realistic in every sense.

    I am glad you guys jumped in here. Systems (and recordings) that don't squash the life out of the music is one of my favorite system aspects. I just can't get really pulled in if that quality is absent.

    My best!
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Barry

    Your having too much fun.

    Maybe you can get on the OMA gathering list with Steve Schell.

    BTW do you think the synergy horn is an option for domestic purposes?

    My salvation is a collection of Sheffield Lab direct cut disks.

  14. #14
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Hello Ian;

    Good idea! I haven't seen Steve in a couple of years and were going to run out of years before long.

    Out of all the smaller Synergy's, ie the ones you could get through a house door, the SH50 is the one. They are what Tom has in his own house.

    Here is what one of the mic and recording guys said pointing at it when he heard them: "This right here. If you dressed this up in a pretty box, it would kill it at one of the HiFi shows, no would ever guess."

    Synergy for home? I will try to answer that. Possibly. Upon first hearing them, most immediately recognize that they do something important and right. It breaks down into several things they get right.

    First off they are time coherent as hell. Percussion and piano do not break them down, you just don't hear a crossover, period.

    Second, they operate as a true point source over a very wide range. Full range performance that gets loud.

    Also, they have the dynamics of a horn. Win win win.

    Is there a something that robs them of perfection? Of course.

    Being a pro device that will take a beating, the very HF is a little soft. It comes right up with a touch of EQ.

    Also they sound brighter and clearer with the grilles off. The supplied grilles are very robust and not as transparent as a home HiFi grille.

    Being that this is a passive pro box the magnitude response is pretty good and the time response is stellar.

    I am driving mine with I-TECH 5000HDs and with a little, and I mean little processing they come right around. I want to see where they could go all active with FIR or LIR filtering. There is just never enough time.

    Take a look if you haven't already.

    https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danl...ec-sheet11.pdf

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Barry,

    Thankyou.

    It kicks a lot of goals and the drivers are not exotic or expensive as hell like Tad or JBL

    A 21 inch neo bass bin in the corner and it game over!

    A few people have messed with a version on and off but l have not heard one as such

    If you get around to trying them inside or with digital processing please let me know .

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