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Thread: JBL by HARMAN Introduces Updated, Iconic JBL L100 Loudspeaker at CES 2018

  1. #46
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    I posted this in another thread, "4367 first listen". Harman has their work cut out for them.

    I listened to the 4367 at CES along with the new L100 Classic.

    I preferred the midrange voicing, soundstage and imaging of the L100 Classic over the 4367. I preferred the effortless bass response of the 4367.

    The midrange...voices, sax, piano, guitar...retreated into the box with the 4376, whereas with the L100 Classic it was nicely set in front of the speakers in the room. The high end was actually nicer with the 4367, more detailed and present. The build quality on the L100 Classic is suspect with the front baffle vinyl covering peeling off the left demo speaker. The quadrex grille foam will not fit the original L100 as the new model is significantly larger. Not worth $4,000.00/pair. It's not built in the US with US craftsmen, so you can throw the inflation calculator out the window. The build quality of the 4367 is excellent as it should be for $15,000.00/pair, but the walnut veneer is nowhere close to the old days. It's looks are "non-organic. Same with the L100 Classic. The Logo plate/L-Pad mount on the L100 Classic is also pretty cheesy looking.

    Down the hall at ELAC with Andrew Jones, I heard a phenomenal new series named ARGO. A super compact, actively triamped, diminutive system that puts anything to shame Harman currently offers, all for a price of $2,000.00/pair coming mid-year.
    New L100 Classic is even better than 4367?unbelieveable
    46 lover

  2. #47
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    New L100 Classic is even better than 4367?unbelieveable
    Is that what you derived from EW's post ?
    Allright Mr. Lansing, I'm ready for your demo

  3. #48
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    New L100 Classic is even better than 4367?unbelieveable
    Like has been stated before, this is all subjective.

    Another gentlemen sat down and and listened for a few seconds...maybe a minute or two. When the speaker cables were changed to the 4367 after the L100 Classic, he immediately proclaimed them to be the "best speakers he's ever heard". After a few minutes of listening to him talk, I surmised he wasn't there as an "industry person", but someone that was looking for his home system. The immediacy of the increased bass response and sensitivity seemed to be the first thing that grabbed his attention from the significantly larger box and 15" woofer. It is impressive...at first. But when the actual music performance is sucked back into the box rendering very little image and soundstage, it's very disappointing. this wasn't a subtle difference, either. The Harman guy doing the demo even said to me...after I pointed out the difference..." I see what you mean by the midrange". I don't think that's an insignificant remark coming the guy doing the demo.

    This, I think, is where "focus groups" come into play when doing market research on this stuff. I'm a musician. I prefer my music to be as it should sound when playing it live. Details...textures...colors..."seeing the music"...this kind of experience that makes the hairs on your arms stand up. It's a visceral experience that I think most non-musicians don't experience. Playing...feeling...music is such a sensory experience that I feel those that have never learned to play an instrument have a hard time equating...learning how to listen, and what to listen for. My friends and family that don't play ask me how I can learn a piece of music by just listening to it with out sheet music telling me what to play. I don't really read or sight read. How do I learn my parts? I'll put on a piece of music and have them concentrate on each instrument. Pick out the bass line. Listen to the chord changes/progression. Isolate that in your mind. Same with the kick drum that should follow the bass line. All of a sudden, it's like a light that goes on..."Oh wow! I never have tried that before! It was all just a bunch of sounds. Now I get". That's the simple version but I think it makes the point.

    Speakers for the consumer market seem to voice the output to accentuate the bass response and high frequencies while ignoring the MUSIC which mostly resides in the midrange frequencies. This is why I prefer my speakers to unmask the music...warts and all...or gloriousness and all. It's an experience that can take you out of reality for a little while unlike anything else. Closing your eyes and "seeing the music" is what It's all about to me. How the speakers are packaged is very important as well with the consumer market and having a high WAF make it even more challenging to integrate as furniture.

    So...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  4. #49
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Ken

    That’s very insightful

    A question of logic more than anything

    As a musician you and the instrument are one.

    But at the venue the audience not you are detached some distance away.

    Therefore, your psycho acoustic is not the same as the audience

    As a recording and the reproduction would the audience want to be sitting next to the instrument as a musician or as a member of the audience some distance away ?

    What l am saying is you “may” have a strong association with the L100 for that reason.

    Maybe the L100 has that presentation or presence on all recording?

    Just thoughts

    Edit: Technicially l have not heard a horn sound like a cone yet. So it could be as simple as that. Jbl horns rely on diffraction from a place within. It could be that your musician ear is sensitive to. Bill Woods and Steve Schell are experts on that topic

  5. #50
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Hi Ian,

    Live music/sound quality is very venue dependent, and whom is manning the mixing console. Small venues like a jazz club are great for hearing what live instruments sound like without the effects of a reverberant concrete and steel jungle like Staples Center or The Honda Center/Anaheim Pond. I haven't been to the Fabulous Forum in Los Angeles/Inglewood since it was converted to a concert venue only. Some musician friends of mine said the acoustics are quite good now, and a great place for a larger concert. The Greek Theater in Los Angeles is one of my favorite concert venues...an outdoor amphitheater with great acoustics. The Hollywood Bowl is pretty great to. Diana Krall is a fabulous show at the Hollywood Bowl...though it's just too crowded and the logistics can be a bit much to take anymore.

    The M2 system is a professional studio monitor. The 4367 is purported to be the "consumer" version of the M2. The difference between these two system is something like $10,000. That's quite a difference when thinking that maybe just tweaking the voicing of the crossover would get way closer to the sonics of the M2. Hearing the tribute L100 soundstage and imaging with impressive room placement forward of the speakers, then hearing the same pieces of music retreat into the box was just plain disappointing...especially at these price points. The 4367 walked all over the L100 Classic in terms of low end and high frequency brilliance, but when it came time hear the music, the L100 walked all over it's bigger sibling.

    The Everest DD66000 was closest passive horn system I had ever heard that didn't sound like a horn. The K2 was impressive as well. Midrange articulation and imaging excellent.

    I'm not saying I have golden ears. I'm giving my perspective of what great speakers should present without trying to be polite. I want my speakers to be honest...warts and all...or gloriousness and all. JBL/Harman/Samsung has too much competition to simply rest on it's legacy reputation.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    Hi Ian,
    ..... Hearing the tribute L100 soundstage and imaging with impressive room placement forward of the speakers, then hearing the same pieces of music retreat into the box was just plain disappointing...especially at these price points. .......
    I'm curious about this comment on the soundstage. The "image" of a live recorded group/orchestra (simple 2 microphone method) should have all the performers "placed" behind the loudspeakers, with no sound appearing to be coming from the loudspeakers. The idea being the speakers were placed where the microphones were, and therefore the music is behind them.

    My old 4311s had the classic "mid-forward center image" similar to the 604s (they were apparently designed to mimic) where you feel like the singer is 3 ft in front of the plane of the speakers, rather than behind them, or on plane with them. Is this what you're referring to? Just curious.

  7. #52
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    I'm curious about this comment on the soundstage. The "image" of a live recorded group/orchestra (simple 2 microphone method) should have all the performers "placed" behind the loudspeakers, with no sound appearing to be coming from the loudspeakers. The idea being the speakers were placed where the microphones were, and therefore the music is behind them.

    My old 4311s had the classic "mid-forward center image" similar to the 604s (they were apparently designed to mimic) where you feel like the singer is 3 ft in front of the plane of the speakers, rather than behind them, or on plane with them. Is this what you're referring to? Just curious.
    Not really.

    Mic placement has everything to do with soundstage and image. Two mics placed above an orchestra or small band will have very little "soundstage", other than left or right. Two mics placed in front of the performance can give a depth perception of the soundstage and an image of how the band is set up.

    The voicing of two different speakers can alter this same soundstage, given the exact same amplifier and input source as I heard at the CES demo.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  8. #53
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    We don't often hear you speak your mind. I love it.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    Not really.
    ......Two mics placed in front of the performance can give a depth perception of the soundstage and an image of how the band is set up.
    Exactly what I'm talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. In this example, the music should be heard as coming from behind the loudspeakers, not from them, or in front of them. Here's a good test track for anyone interested.
    https://www.stereophile.com/content/...one-techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    ......The voicing of two different speakers can alter this same soundstage, given the exact same amplifier and input source as I heard at the CES demo.
    Of course. That's what I was referring to with the 4311 example, which was designed to have the mid forward center image and the reason I asked if that's what you were hearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    .... Hearing the tribute L100 soundstage and imaging with impressive room placement forward of the speakers, ......
    This just sounded as if "all" the music was presented in front of the loudspeakers, not just a center image as with the 4311. I was just looking for clarity. I've never heard a loudspeaker present a complete soundstage image in front of themselves.

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