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Thread: 3-way vs. 4-way

  1. #46
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    But at 100 degrees, the 2404 would be about right.

  2. #47
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    BTW, after adding the 2251Js to the L200/300s, it's hard to listen to music anymore without them. Not perfection, but a bunch closer, including imaging.

  3. #48
    Senior Member bldozier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    The longer I´m talking to you guys, I believe it would be the smartest idea for me to use an active-crossover instead of tinkering with passive crossovers. Of course you are right, that measuring equipment is essential to achieve best results. But as my knowledge isn´t up to that procedure by now, I´d be very glad to hear your suggestions on crossover freq. and slopes.

    Ian, you have suggested aprox. 700hz for low to mid... Would you try 36db-lowpass on the 2234 and 12db-highpass on the 2441 to start with?
    Should I cross at 10khz between mid to high with 12db-lowpass on the 2441 and 18db-highpass on the 2405 as in the 4355-monitors?


    If going active, what size e.g. value of protection capacitors do I have to use infront of 2441 and 2405 driver?


    We talked about matching the dispersion of the woofer with that of the horn. The 90° horizontal dispersion of the yuichi matches the dispersion of a 15" cone very well.
    But how about the horn matching the slot-tweeter?
    The JBL 2405 has a 140° dispersion that matches perfectly with the 2397 at 10khz. But the yuichi´s 90° wouldn´t match well with 140° of the 2405!!
    satellite speakes,

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    The longer I´m talking to you guys, I believe it would be the smartest idea for me to use an active-crossover instead of tinkering with passive crossovers. Of course you are right, that measuring equipment is essential to achieve best results. But as my knowledge isn´t up to that procedure by now, I´d be very glad to hear your suggestions on crossover freq. and slopes.

    Ian, you have suggested aprox. 700hz for low to mid... Would you try 36db-lowpass on the 2234 and 12db-highpass on the 2441 to start with?
    Should I cross at 10khz between mid to high with 12db-lowpass on the 2441 and 18db-highpass on the 2405 as in the 4355-monitors?


    If going active, what size e.g. value of protection capacitors do I have to use infront of 2441 and 2405 driver?


    We talked about matching the dispersion of the woofer with that of the horn. The 90° horizontal dispersion of the yuichi matches the dispersion of a 15" cone very well.
    But how about the horn matching the slot-tweeter?
    The JBL 2405 has a 140° dispersion that matches perfectly with the 2397 at 10khz. But the Yuichi´s 90° wouldn´t match well with 140° of the 2405!!
    See Yuichi's web site for measurements. That will explain thew answer to your question.

    The other information is available in the legacy JBL 5234 manual online pdfs.

    I am sorry but you need to be able to measure for an active crossover to obtain a useable result.

    Some loudspeaker management crossovers have a measurement function.

    In addition, you need to learn more about the components you plan to use then evaluate them at a practical level to determine the next steps and manage your expectations.

    Your expectations are probably totally differently to mine and my level of expertise and experience and my listening skills are most likely very different to yours.

    Any comments I make are only insights, not answers but pointers to considerations along the process of a potential design.

    There is no substitute for learning by doing and you will need to go though this like everyone else.

    At this early stage you seem to be over thinking your options.

  5. #50
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Ivica 4333 Nelson Pass inspired Network

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    The longer I´m talking to you guys, I believe it would be the smartest idea for me to use an active-crossover instead of tinkering with passive crossovers. Of course you are right, that measuring equipment is essential to achieve best results. But as my knowledge isn´t up to that procedure by now, I´d be very glad to hear your suggestions on crossover freq. and slopes.

    Ian, you have suggested aprox. 700hz for low to mid... Would you try 36db-lowpass on the 2234 and 12db-highpass on the 2441 to start with?
    Should I cross at 10khz between mid to high with 12db-lowpass on the 2441 and 18db-highpass on the 2405 as in the 4355-monitors?
    If going active, what size e.g. value of protection capacitors do I have to use in-front of 2441 and 2405 driver?
    We talked about matching the dispersion of the woofer with that of the horn. The 90° horizontal dispersion of the yuichi matches the dispersion of a 15" cone very well.
    But how about the horn matching the slot-tweeter?
    The JBL 2405 has a 140° dispersion that matches perfectly with the 2397 at 10khz. But the yuichi´s 90° wouldn´t match well with 140° of the 2405!!

    Hi Dr.db,

    I would start with JBL 4333, or Nelson-Pass network upgrade. As JBL 2312 (&2420/21) has almost linear response, I will say the same as 244x & Yuchi A290 (with internal fins) so almost the same network can be used (I believe some amount of the 2441 combo level has to be reduced 1 to 2 dB).

    Using active setup capacitors in-the-series-to the driver: 47uF has to be applied to 2441 and 4.7uF to 2405.
    Concerning the dispersion - You will be satisfied.

    http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_l300.pdf
    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L300%20Summit%20ts.pdf

    or some of my experiments, as attached,
    regards
    ivica
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  6. #51
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    http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/viewt...?f=113&t=38379

    http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/M...xperiment.html

    http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/H.../A290-S90.html

    The above are clues and resources , the facts

    It’s obvious you don’t need to have a slot from those measurements

    You do need a passive notch filter to smooth the mid bump like in the schematic link
    The above are the facts you need to interpret but not over engineer.

    As l mentioned earlier it’s not an academic discussion

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    The other information is available in the legacy JBL 5234 manual online pdfs.
    That´s a good advice, I just had a look at this document.

    It suggest the following protection-capacitors in Table 2:
    4uf for 10.000hz (active-xover) with an 8ohm driver (2405)
    52uf for 400hz (active-xover) with an 16ohm driver (2441), so I would need 26uf for 800hz (active-xover)

    But it also suggest 20uf for 16ohm driver (2441) for 500hz or higher in Table 1. But 20uf is recommended for 16ohm and 1000hz in Table 2.... which is corect now

    @ivica: Why would you use 47uf for 2441 as an protection cab?

    Thanks a lot for the shematics!



    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post

    http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/H.../A290-S90.html

    It’s obvious you don’t need to have a slot from those measurements

    Thanks for researching the links!


    The TAD driver on the yuichi-horn extends to ~20khz (first measurement), but the JBL 2441 driver on the yuichi-horn extends to ~10khz (third measurement).
    Why wouldn´t I need a slot, even yuichi himself suggests to use a tweeter with the JBL.

  8. #53
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    That´s a good advice, I just had a look at this document.

    It suggest the following protection-capacitors in Table 2:
    4uf for 10.000hz (active-xover) with an 8ohm driver (2405)
    52uf for 400hz (active-xover) with an 16ohm driver (2441), so I would need 26uf for 800hz (active-xover)

    But it also suggest 20uf for 16ohm driver (2441) for 500hz or higher in Table 1. But 20uf is recommended for 16ohm and 1000hz in Table 2.... which is corect now

    @ivica: Why would you use 47uf for 2441 as an protection cab?

    Thanks a lot for the shematics!

    The TAD driver on the yuichi-horn extends to ~20khz (first measurement), but the JBL 2441 driver on the yuichi-horn extends to ~10khz (third measurement).
    Why wouldn´t I need a slot, even yuichi himself suggests to use a tweeter with the JBL.
    Hi Dr.db,

    1. If ACTIVE setup, 47uF cap for 2441 would have very little influence on the active network operation
    2. As 2441 is very efficient driver (reaching almost 110dB/1W/1m) You have about 10dB headroom to equalize its response over 10kHz, so to include RC
    FR compensation over 10kHz, but first You have to do some measurements to get real response Yuichi A290 and 2441 (AL). May be it can be useful without even 2405


    regards
    ivica

  9. #54
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    Thanks, I ordered 47uf and 4,7uf now.

  10. #55
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    The more I listen, the more I like the addition of the 10". It adds a really nice "snap" to the snare drum that you just don't get with a 2235.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    The more I listen, the more I like the addition of the 10". It adds a really nice "snap" to the snare drum that you just don't get with a 2235.

    Another one has seen the light!

    It’s amazing how smooth one can get a magnitude curve on a two way and it can still miss so much of the dynamics in the middle. Those 10”’s can bring a system to life.

    Glad you like them.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  12. #57
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    Thanks for sharing your experience

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dn92 View Post
    TAD asymetrical slopes crossover allows to compensate delay between bass unit and horn compression driver.
    Maybe my understanding of delays caused by filters is wrong, but I thought these delays only affects the crossover-region/frequencies and not the whole frequency-range of the driver. But wouldn´t you need to offset the complete bass unit e.g. all frequencies to time-align the bass unit with the horn compression driver?

  14. #59
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    There are limits to the explanations we can provide here.

    Have you undertaken any of your own research on the topic?
    Correct interpretation of responses on this topic requires an advanced understanding of loudspeaker measurement and crossover design.

    At a basic level this is a good place to start

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loud...time_alignment

    You are attempting to jump in at the end of the process and ask for a solution?

    Forget about what Tad did because you are not closely cloning that design


    Please appreciate this feedback given the time required to respond to your questions.

    In terms of making the situation real the expectation would be that you would have access to Clio. Along with detailed view of your proposed design you would send me data files from your measurements. The Smith and Larson speaker tester is possibly another option.

    Analysis could then begin followed by design and optimisation of either a passive or analogue or digital network. An appropriate fee would be charged for my time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    Maybe my understanding of delays caused by filters is wrong, but I thought these delays only affects the crossover-region/frequencies and not the whole frequency-range of the driver. But wouldn´t you need to offset the complete bass unit e.g. all frequencies to time-align the bass unit with the horn compression driver?
    This affect mainly frequencies below crossover frequency, with a varying value depending upon the filter transfer function. Bessel filters are close to pure delay but only below crossover frequencies. TAD used something closed to LR36 filter for LF and close to Butt12 for HF. You have to consider also that there is a non constant group delay provided by compression driver and horn, that has to be part of the game for the time aligment of the two drivers. As Yuichi horn is different from TH-4001 there should be adaptation in the crossover components values.

    You have to be able to do measurements (freq response and impedance) before thinking modifying the TAD schematic values for adapting them. Start also by using a digital crossover together with your measurements, and when crossover will be finalised move to passive crossover engineering.

    You can find TN-2 schematic there: http://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=15946

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