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Thread: 3-way vs. 4-way

  1. #1
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    3-way vs. 4-way

    Hey guys,

    I was thinking about a new project for a friend of mine.
    He has listened to my system and wants similar parts, but we want to improve it a little compared to my DIY-speakers.

    The following parts are on hand:
    2234H
    2123H
    2441
    2405

    For those of you asking why 2234h instead of 2235h; the 2235 just sounded to muddy above 300hz and the 2234h with it´s lighter cone would be prefered for the 3-way...
    Now there are two possible setup´s we are thinking about.

    Option 1:
    - 2234H
    - 2441 on yuichi-horn
    - 2405
    - L300-crossover (800hz, 8,5khz)

    Option 2:
    - 2234H
    - 2123H
    - 2441 on 2397-horn
    - 2405
    - 3155-crossover (300hz, 1,2khz, 10khz)


    We are wondering which setup would be the best.
    A 3-way design with a big yuichi horn that allows to crossover the 2441 at 800hz? The big horn is really tempting and would sound great with the 2441. But on the other hand, the 15" woofer below 800hz doesn´t sound as snappy and dynamic as the 10" cone in the 4-way design...

    Looking forward to hear your ideas

  2. #2
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    There are so many consideration to factor in a project like this. Some of mine would be:

    How loud will it be expected to play?

    What will the listening distance likely be?

    Is the room live and reflective or absorptive?

    Is the music to be listened to mostly field recorded or studio produced?

    Here’s my thinking:

    The 2397 is dispersive in the horizontal plane and diffractive in the vertical. A 2397 not mounted in a baffle sounds nearly the same from behind as in front. In a live room that could be a problem. With field music like orchestra, the sound from everywhere can be a plus.

    If you listen loud, four ways get louder and sound better than two ways.

    There is no doubt in my mind that no 15” woofer will pop like a 2123.

    If real loud is not a main consideration and if the listening distance is not great, a two way integrates better and easier.

    The Yuichi will have better pattern control and as a byproduct of that better imaging and would be my prefered for listening biased to studio recorded music where imaging is more a factor than envelopment of field recordings.

    The 2441 should get to about 16k on either horn. I like to let them play up as far as they will cleanly and get the super tweeter to cover only what the large fromat driver wont. The system will play louder while maintaining the big system sound of a large format system.

    Any of your listed possible combinations would require subwoofers for me.

    These opinions are from a guy who likes the sound of large format HiFiPa. Maybe that disqualifies me.

    All the best,
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Chevelle's Avatar
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    I had the 4-way with 2123 lo-mid which has really "snappy" sound. But what I like more with my 3-way is the sound from a 2" driver as low as possible. I cross the 2445 at 700Hz with my 2311 short horn, let it go up to 16k and have a 2405 on top.
    This is best in my ears for short listening distance under 3.5meters in a live room and medium listening levels. The 4-ways only had an advantage at very high listening levels.

    Hjalmar

  4. #4
    Senior Member Chevelle's Avatar
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    Forgot to say that the 3-way sounds good with passive crossover, I use the Nelson Pass modified version of the 3133. The 4-way does not sound best with passive crossover. This system really wakes up when run active with a good amp for the 2234/35.

    Hjalmar

  5. #5
    Senior Member bldozier's Avatar
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    which kind of music are you playing and are you biamp your system

  6. #6
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    If you can do the big wood horn the run the 2234 up to 650 hertz with 4th or 6th order filters

    Using the 2123 with those other drivers is pointless

    Besides there will be too much group delay from the 2123 shallow cone to the compression driver.

    Of course pro pa guys will quote it out of the “book” but that is not any where refined enough for the financial outlay in a home listening situation.

    It will never sound right

    The devil is always in the details and that is the crossover phase tracking and getting the 2/3 way to track your preferred room listening curve. That’s not easy as none of this is plug and play

    At best you will have a “wall “ of sound. I stopped doing that about 20 years ago.
    Greg’s designs are always the first port of call before you go off the reservation into the diy wilderness

    With a 4 way is easier for the diy person to manipulate the levels to track your room curve but you still need some tools to measure the levels.

    I currently shave the levels on the 43xx 4 ways to within 0.25 dB with LinearX LMS

    The balance and audiophile “thing” snaps right in with that order of precision

  7. #7
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    ....Of course pro pa guys will quote it out of the “book” but that is not any where refined enough for the financial outlay in a home listening situation....
    Hi Ian;

    To what does this refer? Sorry you lost me.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  8. #8
    Senior Member berga12's Avatar
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    Red face

    2234h --> 300hz (or 250hz)
    2123 --> 300 (250hz)-800hz
    2441 --> 800 - 10.000hz
    2405 --> >10.000hz

    easy game.

    with 2441 you can go down to 500hz in a Yuichi 290 or Iwata, in this case you can get rid of the 2123, but then you loose in "guitar type" instrument reproduction and Low voice dimension.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Hi Ian;

    To what does this refer? Sorry you lost me.

    Barry.
    What l was referring to was going to a pa handbook, making a number of assumptions and then building a (large) pa rig is not the same as designing and testing a domestic hi fidelity loudspeaker or a studio monitor.

  10. #10
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berga12 View Post
    2234h --> 300hz (or 250hz)
    2123 --> 300 (250hz)-800hz
    2441 --> 800 - 10.000hz
    2405 --> >10.000hz

    easy game.

    with 2441 you can go down to 500hz in a Yuichi 290 or Iwata, in this case you can get rid of the 2123, but then you loose in "guitar type" instrument reproduction and Low voice dimension.

    Hi

    I would suggest to use 2441 (AL) over 1250Hz, as such 'high FR' would not be a problem for 2123, and AL D16R2441 diaphragm will be protected from "over displacement" of too low FR.
    Anyhow A290 (with fins) would be my favorite solution. From the Dr. Yuichi measurements, it seems that 2405 can be omitted.

    Generally speaking using many drivers would introduce 'comb filter effect' round crossover frequency depending of the listener position
    and can not be compensated to all spacial positions.


    regards
    ivica

  11. #11
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    The 2234 would be satisfactory up to 1000 hertz

  12. #12
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    Thanks a lot for this great response!

    I try to answer your questions, I hope I don´t miss out on any.

    @:audiohack, chevelle & bldozier:
    The system will be in an average living-room of aprox. 30m² that is about 4,5*6,5m.
    That room is a little acoustically treated, some absorbers are mounted for early reflections... But nothing fancy...
    The system will have to play loud, but not crazy loud.
    Most records are studio recorded.
    Music varies from Jazz to Deathmetal or even Electro.

    @Ian:"Using the 2123 with those other drivers is pointless"

    Before I started this thread I used the search. Most people seemed to favour the JBL 4343 (4-way) over the 4333 (3-way).
    There are to possible reasons; either the used 1"-driver wasn´t capable of the lower crossover in the 3-way and sounded stressed. Or the 15" woofer sounded muddy running up to 800hz in the 3-way and the 10" midwoofer in the 4-way gained a lot of liveliness to the speaker.

    The first mentioned problem could be adressed by a 2"-driver instead of that 1"-driver as in the 4333 or 4343 which should be much more capable of that 800hz crossover and sounding less stressed.

    I know what you are saying; GT designs are very well worked out.
    For a person of my knowledge it is usually a wise idea to strictly stick to those proven designs. I kind of did this with my current diy-build that turned out into a 4-way with your help, thanks again.

    @berga: "you can get rid of the 2123, but then you loose in "guitar type" instrument reproduction and Low voice dimension"

    These are my concerns with the 3-way...
    Shure the 2234 will play way up to the 2441 on the big yuichi, but it will never be able to deliver the same liveliness. I expect it to sound more like a hifi-speaker than like the famous JBL straight in your face punch

    @ivica: I get what you´re saying, but does this still count in a living-room of 30m² of size? It will play loud, but even with a 800hz crossover the 2441 should be much below it´s limits!?

  13. #13
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    The depth of the A290 plus the mounting flange then the depth of a 2 inch driver is way more distance thin a 2123 and a 2307/2420

    Horn depth 405mm plus the driver vc


    http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/Horn/A290/A290.html

    That is why a suggested you look at the 2234 with its deeper cone profile

    Group delay of phase shift is the problem above 1000 hz

    So use the A290 with a 2 inch driver around 700 hertz to minimise the group delay

    The 2334 recone is available and is a proven driver up 1000 hz

    Put two in a box like the 4435 and mount the A290 above like the 4435 and you have a class system

    If you email Ari at Yuichi he will help you

    My advice is keep it simple

    The 2235/2231 is not the same acoustically as a 2234 so don’t compare the 4343 etc with anything else

  14. #14
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    That is why a suggested you look at the 2234 with its deeper cone profile
    Hello Ian

    You might be able to pull the horn a bit forward of the baffle face as well to help offset the difference aka Array Series

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  15. #15
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    Yeah maybe

    But the A290 is 400mm deep

    I tried that last time with the 2397

    The 2397 is nice but not coming from a dark “hole” in the universe

    It never sounded right

    So l moved it forward

    The problem is you then get reflection of the mid driver / woofer in the case a 2122

    With the benefit of experience and hindsight l would not do a 2123 under a deep horn

    On paper it might seem smart but in reality there are quite audible problems that are not easy to fix (Greg does mention this in comments on the vintage 43xx and it’s something you live with. I have since been able to remove the group delay with a novel
    approach)

    Back to my recommendation to Dr DB

    Use a 2334 a) because it’s one of the few recone you can get b) it’s very good in the midrange

    C) a 15 driver dispersion narrows down with frequency typically 100 degrees at 1000 hz

    That means the horn horizontal dispersion is going to be a better match with a 15 woofer than a 10 inch mid from 700-1000 hertz

    This is audible and Jbl have in recent times gone to great lengths to ensure there is a close match

    Alternatively if you can do it get a 2216nd-1

    Put the 2 inch driver on the A290

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