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Thread: New Project: Recommendation for bass driver.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Sootshe's Avatar
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    New Project: Recommendation for bass driver.

    Hi all,

    Putting together a 3 way & have the mid & top drivers & crossovers. I was going to use the GPA 416-8B, but lately have been looking at the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. I read a report that says the AE has a problem with cone excursion on the outward stroke, which severely limits the cone travel, causing distortion.....see this link http://www.data-bass.com/data?id=52&page=driver, so that has put a doubt in my mind.

    What would you recommend for a 15" JBL bass driver to give solid performance down into the low 30's?
    The system will consist of the following:
    15" bass driver in ported cab up to 250L, crossed at 500Hz to -
    A55G Compresson mid mated to Altec 511B, crossed at 6000Hz to - sensitivity 106db
    JBL 2404 tweeter
    Crossover is from Werner Jagusch with autoformers & PIO caps.

    As you can see, I believe I need a fairly high sensitivity woofer, say 97db minimum, to mate with the other components. Looked at the 2226 & would appreciate your opinions & other options.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Senior Member Horn Fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sootshe View Post
    Hi all,

    Putting together a 3 way & have the mid & top drivers & crossovers. I was going to use the GPA 416-8B, but lately have been looking at the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. I read a report that says the AE has a problem with cone excursion on the outward stroke, which severely limits the cone travel, causing distortion.....see this link http://www.data-bass.com/data?id=52&page=driver, so that has put a doubt in my mind.

    What would you recommend for a 15" JBL bass driver to give solid performance down into the low 30's?
    The system will consist of the following:
    15" bass driver in ported cab up to 250L, crossed at 500Hz to -
    A55G Compresson mid mated to Altec 511B, crossed at 6000Hz to - sensitivity 106db
    JBL 2404 tweeter
    Crossover is from Werner Jagusch with autoformers & PIO caps.

    As you can see, I believe I need a fairly high sensitivity woofer, say 97db minimum, to mate with the other components. Looked at the 2226 & would appreciate your opinions & other options.

    Thanks
    Greetings -

    IMHO, you can't go wrong with the ALTEC. With a free air resonance of 24 Hz, in a 250 liter enclosure you shouldn't have much trouble reproducing 30 Hz. Personally, I wouldn't use a 2226 for anything but sound reinforcement.

    Just sayin'...

    H.F.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Sootshe's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Horn Fanatic View Post
    Greetings -

    IMHO, you can't go wrong with the ALTEC. With a free air resonance of 24 Hz, in a 250 liter enclosure you shouldn't have much trouble reproducing 30 Hz. Personally, I wouldn't use a 2226 for anything but sound reinforcement.

    Just sayin'...

    H.F.
    Yeah, that Altec is a great driver, but then I looked at the AE & thought that would be a cleaner more up to date sound.......ah....decisions, decisions.
    Thanks for your thoughts on the 2226.....I don't really want to go down the PA type sound road, would much rather prefer a more detailed, clean, & smoother bass.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    And what about the venerable 2235 in your specified 8.8cft ?
    If so, I'd even consider a 2245 in that same 8,8cft... ;-)

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horn Fanatic View Post
    ... I wouldn't use a 2226 for anything but sound reinforcement.

    Just sayin'...

    H.F.
    Well, it can sound pretty good and hifi, but requires a lot of processing. Major boost is required from 30Hz up to 70Hz. And I mean major... Better have a digital crossover... ;-)

  6. #6
    Senior Member Sootshe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal View Post
    And what about the venerable 2235 in your specified 8.8cft ?
    If so, I'd even consider a 2245 in that same 8,8cft... ;-)
    Wouldn't that 93db sensitivity be a little on the low side?

  7. #7
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sootshe View Post
    Wouldn't that 93db sensitivity be a little on the low side?

    Hi,
    May be two 2235, or 2235 + 2234...reaching about 99 dB (93 + 6 due to the mutual coupling)

    regards
    ivica

  8. #8
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sootshe View Post
    As you can see, I believe I need a fairly high sensitivity woofer, say 97db minimum, to mate with the other components. Looked at the 2226 & would appreciate your opinions & other options.
    I'm not a fan of the 2226H in a domestic setting though others seem to be happy with it. If you have the room, a pair of 2234Hs might be a great option.


    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    May be two 2235, or 2235 + 2234...reaching about 99 dB (93 + 6 due to the mutual coupling)
    Actually the pair of 2235s in a 4355 or the pair of 2234H in the 4435 are both rated at 96db.


    Widget

  9. #9
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    Ivica and Mr. widget are both right but failed to explain their answer...

    Mutual coupling of 2 identical drivers results in + 3 db due to the coupling itself (increased sensitivity of two sources close by), and MAY also result in another + 3 db due to increased (doubled) power capability of the two drivers compared to a single one. Naturally, the second 3 db may show-up if, an only if, the drivers are driven hard enough to get there. If not, then you get only + 3 db on sensitivity as Mr. Widget has shown. Regards,

    Richard

  10. #10
    Senior Member Sootshe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I'm not a fan of the 2226H in a domestic setting though others seem to be happy with it. If you have the room, a pair of 2234Hs might be a great option.


    Actually the pair of 2235s in a 4355 or the pair of 2234H in the 4435 are both rated at 96db.


    Widget
    Agreed, a pair of these per side would be quite good. Pretty hard to find a good pair, let alone a couple. I assume if I go this way that I would use the enclosure guide as per attached......a 10ft3 enclosure divided into 2 sections & tuned to 30Hz.
    Do you know if genuine recone kits are still available for these , if so, I don't have to be too fussy about the condition of the ones I purchase.
    Almost impossible to get these in Oz, so would need to probably come from the States, making freight a fairly expensive exercise.

    I think I can get 21db attenuation with the autoformers in my crossovers, so maybe I don't need a pair per side & can get away with that 93db efficiency just using 1 driver per side.......Link to autoformer specs - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Autotran...iu42LDS-PiHkDQ

    Cheers,
    John
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    ...
    Actually the pair of 2235s in a 4355 or the pair of 2234H in the 4435 are both rated at 96db.

    Widget
    Hi Widget,

    You are right if we are talking about the efficiency, as two 2234/5 are working in parallel, so their "net" impedance in such configuration is 4 Ohms, but if it is applied the voltage from the amp of about 2.83Veff then the sound effect would be 99dB/1m (yes from the amp it would be consumed 2W of electric power), but I do not expect that the amp power here would be the limitation.
    I do not want to mention here that in stereo configuration, lower frequency would be influenced by speaker mutual coupling too (especially if the room would be
    of not so large size) plus teh room LF "gain", but all of that would be out of the topics here....

    Regards
    Ivica

  12. #12
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    what about E145?
    sensitivity 98db
    a great bass driver with light cone that make him very fast and good for midrange also

  13. #13
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sootshe View Post
    I assume if I go this way that I would use the enclosure guide as per attached......a 10ft3 enclosure divided into 2 sections & tuned to 30Hz.
    Do you know if genuine recone kits are still available for these , if so, I don't have to be too fussy about the condition of the ones I purchase.
    Genuine C8R2235 kits are still available. I would study the JBL 4435 design. This speaker has excellent bass. The pair of 2234Hs (2235H without mass ring) in parallel with one as the a helper woofer is an excellent solution.


    Widget

  14. #14
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sootshe View Post
    Hi all,

    Putting together a 3 way & have the mid & top drivers & crossovers. I was going to use the GPA 416-8B, but lately have been looking at the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. I read a report that says the AE has a problem with cone excursion on the outward stroke, which severely limits the cone travel, causing distortion.....see this link http://www.data-bass.com/data?id=52&page=driver, so that has put a doubt in my mind.

    What would you recommend for a 15" JBL bass driver to give solid performance down into the low 30's?
    The system will consist of the following:
    15" bass driver in ported cab up to 250L, crossed at 500Hz to -
    A55G Compresson mid mated to Altec 511B, crossed at 6000Hz to - sensitivity 106db
    JBL 2404 tweeter
    Crossover is from Werner Jagusch with autoformers & PIO caps.

    As you can see, I believe I need a fairly high sensitivity woofer, say 97db minimum, to mate with the other components. Looked at the 2226 & would appreciate your opinions & other options.

    Thanks
    Due to the physics involved a single 15 inch wooder of that rated sensitivity will not give useable extension with out active equaliser applying 6 dB of boost and a port tuned to the low 30’s.

    Have a look at DB keele’s Website extended box tuning

    The other issue is Xmax

    A 416 has relatively small Xmax to deliver usable authority in the low 30’s

    The AE15m is a similar category of woofer

    In 7 ft3 it will do the mid to high 30’s but not full power in the low 30’s

    It just won’t happen

    I have a pair and they are excellent

    Most simulators of TL bass response modelling only give you a small signal prediction at 1 watt

    So that means looking at dual 15 inch woofers or an extended bass woofer of lower sensitivity

    The jbl 2234 is a good option as used in the 4435

    It offers full power to the mid 20’s

    But jbl will not sell genuine recone kits to consumers

    It needs to be done by a jbl service centre like Jands in Sydney

    Just call them to get further advice.

    The other way to go is a B&C woofer as used in The Earl Geddes Summa and use several subs at below 80 hertz

    The box is relatively small and you get you cake and eat it too

    The other old chestnut is the Jbl 2245 18 inch woofer

    That will reliably give you extended low bass but is only suitable to 250-300 hz.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    You may consider the 2216ND-1
    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

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