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Thread: A larger room, a pair of 4313B and maybe the need to upgrade?

  1. #31
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malefoda View Post
    Hi guys,
    he's ready to pull the trigger on a pair of mint 4430. If I've ready what's to be read about, the only drawback is the lack HF, annoying for youngsters (which we ain't no more).
    To be amplified with Hypex on the passive XO, but right now the 100W Yamaha.
    Before money's vanishing, are there "flaws" we should be aware of?

    Thanks!
    I think 100W Yamaha can not match 4430,you may find more better and more powerful amp for 4430,don't waste your 4430,very good speaker.
    How to match a speaker is a kind of art.
    46 lover

  2. #32
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Net...%20Network.pdf


    Already bypassed.

    You could do the charge coupled crossover which is an improvement.
    That would entail a new build of the crossover network.

    A Tad 2002/2001 compression driver has been substituted for the 2425 compression driver.
    An expensive upgrade but the results are apparently impressive.
    Very good suggestion!can 2425 be replaced directly without any modification of crossover?
    Do you think that 4430 still need UHF(077)while replace 2420 with TAD2002?
    Is there any even more better drivers than TAD 2002 for 2425 replacement?
    46 lover

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    The answer is yet to be determined.

    None of this stuff us ever plug and play. It’s just isn’t and if you were going to spend $3000 plus on drivers you would want to optimise the response and the crossover.

    The Radian Be 1 inch driver might fit the horn and it might work but how well is an unknown. I don’t think adding a 2405 driver is necessary or desirable in this type of system.

    The thing is the 2425 is a diy friendly driver while l have heard the Tad2001 is not.

    There is some conjecture on whether Be diaphragms work subjectively well in the top octave. I don’t have a problem there with my Tad4003 on my Bill Woods AH700 large conical horns but the AH700 is one of the best horns money can buy. A lot of this kind of discussion comes down to interpretation of what diy people are doing in their own space.

    So when someone says you must do this and you do that l go really! An example is claiming the 2405 must be used on top of the 2344 bi radial.

  4. #34
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    Cool

    So many switch contacts waiting to fail... thanks for the document Ian.
    I see crossover's parts as important as the ones you'll find in previous gear: if your DAC and your amp have top quality filter/coupling caps, why keep lower quality (and nobody can deny a MKT does less than a MKP, that's a technical fact (one can deny hearing it I agree)) in the audio stream and -worst- as a bottleneck before the drivers? And I've experienced, each time, a real gain in swapping MKT and/or MKT//MKP with MKP and/or MKP//Polystyrene. And yes you're right, all that being CCed in my bluties, my 4313Ti
    Zonker wondering:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ecapping-4430s
    Seems these mexican-made caps are MKT. Will read more about them, maybe find used XOs and upgrade them so we can keep OEM ones. And keep the idea of the better TAD for my brother's next years of fun =)
    Martin,
    the 100W mass market Yamaha is just there to wait, will produce some music anyway. At the end (months coming) are planned an (an or a?) Hypex power amp (being a nCore 400/500 or at worst an UcD400/700, choice will depend on how much power needed, 180/300W...) and a home-brew DAC ŗ la Weiss DAC202. That's why I want the last drop of juice not being wasted in some lesser Mylar caps
    Will share results here.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Yep see my other posts in that thread.

    I buillt my network for these 2344 horns with Hovland capacitors and was happy with the results. I use Pass Labs amps and a pro DAC so my subjective impressions may not necessarily align with others who use different equipment.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    When you have done the passive crossover send me a pm and l will help you on the amp for the horn and an active crossover

  7. #37
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    The answer is yet to be determined.

    None of this stuff us ever plug and play. Itís just isnít and if you were going to spend $3000 plus on drivers you would want to optimise the response and the crossover.

    The Radian Be 1 inch driver might fit the horn and it might work but how well is an unknown. I donít think adding a 2405 driver is necessary or desirable in this type of system.

    The thing is the 2425 is a diy friendly driver while l have heard the Tad2001 is not.

    There is some conjecture on whether Be diaphragms work subjectively well in the top octave. I donít have a problem there with my Tad4003 on my Bill Woods AH700 large conical horns but the AH700 is one of the best horns money can buy. A lot of this kind of discussion comes down to interpretation of what diy people are doing in their own space.

    So when someone says you must do this and you do that l go really! An example is claiming the 2405 must be used on top of the 2344 bi radial.
    You think TAD2001 is the best solution for 2425?someone think 2425+2405 is better than TAD2001
    46 lover

  8. #38
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Anyone is entitled to their opinion and what they do is entirely up to them.

    But my comments above stand.

    You have to appreciate the whole excerise is about creating an illusion of the original recorded event.

    Everyone has a different view of what that illusion should sound like so itís hardly surprising to hear about the add on modifications people make to a loudspeaker.

    The thing is this system was in production for a long time and Jbl never sort to significantly upgrade the design. A lot of industry professionals use that system and l imagine Jbl would have received their feedback if the addition of a 2405 was required.

    If someone thinks it needs a super tweeter they might be loosing hi frequency hearing or they might realise the 4430 is not for them.

  9. #39
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    Question

    Hi fellows,

    back with few questions. It's all related with some harshness and annoying sibilance. The previous speakers, with a 066 and another with 035Ti had none. More or less highs but no harshness.
    The amp is still the 100WPC Yamaha, I know this does not help, but that receiver (R-S700) is said to be "soft", no highs problem. But who know when stressed to death how it performs...
    The room is still big, with large windows and not all the planned furnitures. It sounds (the room) on the bright and echoing side, does that bring the sound to be harsh? I thought I will just mess with the image.
    The compression... here I don't know, aluminum or titanium... that last one is said "harsher", but does that mean "harsh" when the aluminum is not or just "brings a tad of harshness"? And worst, seems there is a foam dampener in there, if the driver is the same which left the factory more than 30 years ago, is it rotten and no more dampening?
    I understand it can be a mix of all this, but what makes more sense to you?

    Thanks!
    Matthieu

  10. #40
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Replace the foam in the rear cap. You can use foam or felt.

    Provided the diaphragms are not old and fatigued there should be no harshness.

    I suspect this cause is the 100 x 100 dispersion of six surfaces.

    If the highs are spread across the wider area with equal level then this is a possibility where the room reverberation time, absorption and diffuse qualities vary with frequency. Conventional high frequency direct radiators start to fall off or narrow in dispersion at a wavelength equal to the diameter of the cone or dome typically.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Provided the diaphragms are not old and fatigued there should be no harshness.
    Hi Ian,
    you mean that can also be worn out? And lead to nasty sound? Oh my, sounds like there is some maintenance on the compression then. Are there any papers on that or JBL used to let them "degrade", ŗ la 035Ti and was happy with a 10 years life span part, then trash and buy again?

    Thanks

  12. #42
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Yes or dirt in the compression driver voice coil gap.

    Depending on where theyíve been used they diaphragms could need replacing and the gap cleaned.

    Somewhere in the technical section this is an article on this.

    I would pull the driver and find out what diaphragm is currently in there first?

    Get the compression drivers serviced and possibly replace the diaphragms.

    This is relatively common problem due to age. It might have the aluminium D8R2421 diamond surround diaphragms which were not as robust as the titanium version that replaced the aluminium ones.

    If itís one thing l have learned donít assume anything is working 100 % with a used Jbl system or in fact any used loudspeakers or drivers.

  13. #43
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    Thanks for the informations and kind answers, much appreciated.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    No problem.

    Itís good to see the JBL legacy is alive and well in France.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malefoda View Post
    Hi Widget, yep I did not notice that they were more efficient. Anyway a 15" cheaper than a L300 is the L200... Pro versions 4333 and 4320?
    Have to read about these and find used ones cheap, which can be impossible. Here in France we have a contender for theses classic JBLs, the brand Cabasse... will look there also.
    Anyone heard some big ATCs and how they compare?
    While ATCs have models that uses one or two 15Ē woofers, they are voiced very differently from JBLs. If you are used to the jblís bass, the ATC might sound like there is no bass on first listen. But after you get acquainted with the ATC house sound, you will appreciate why they are studiosí choice for monitors. You really could hear bass notes clearly as individual notes.

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