Skating rink bass build

[Tube Radio]

Looks like he used those for the bass under a certain frequency as he still had corner loaded 18" horns.

This is primarily why I don't want to deal with modern subs

Ill tell you this, one thing the speakers of yesteryear, the great ones, had over todays speakers, is transient response. Todays subs take more power, but they dont have that fast snap that used to make bass come to life. In my opinion. I find most of todays sub woofers too garbled sounding, yeah they go down deep, but they have no articulation, and speed, that nimbleness that lets you visualize the instrument and player...

I honestly think that has a lot to do with the more modern subwoofer drivers typically used in modern subs having stiffer suspensions and heavier cones to withstand the higher power thrown at them which causes the drivers to not respond as quickly as the older subs would.

I figure perhaps using some super scoopers as the subs and if they go low enough then that will be all I need.

Given the space I need to fill I'd need the longer throw ability of the horns.

As it stands now with the Yorkville subs the bass is much louder by the subs and decreases in output as you move away from them.

That said I've heard the 4520 cabinets at another rink of similar size (maybe slightly smaller) and the bass seemed to not decrease as much moving away from the subs, and even though the low bass under 40Hz was not really there what was there sounded so natural and present.

[Mr. Widget]

As it stands now with the Yorkville subs the bass is much louder by the subs and decreases in output as you move away from them.

That said I've heard the 4520 cabinets at another rink of similar size (maybe slightly smaller) and the bass seemed to not decrease as much moving away from the subs...

While sound theoretically falls off at -6dB per doubling of the distance, line arrays fall off at only -3dB. I do not know if a properly implemented "long throw" horn will approach the fall off of a line array or not... or subjectively what you may have experienced in that scenario, but it is possibly related. That said the 4520 is considered a "short throw" horn so I'm not sure.

I'm not anti horn, not at all, but to have a well made horn that will properly couple with the air and provide an fc below 40Hz, it must be gigantic. The actual size will depend on the expansion rate you choose, but they are all extremely large.

As for what will sound best in your venue, that's subjective. Keep us posted on your progress.


Widget

[Lee in Montreal]

You gonna have to start experimenting by yourself, and see what type of bass cabinets suits better which type of music. Set aside of a few hundred $ and build some cabinets. See how they sound. Perhaps you can event rent bass cabs for testing. See what outdoor shows use, and in which quantities. What is your personal DJ system?

[KCCT82]

Go for tapped horns. It's a horn, good efficiency, very small footprint, easier than building a proper exponential horn, fairly easy to design 20-100hz , and doesn't need an expensive driver.

[edgewound]

Sounds like a scenario where some good room acoustics analysis might be a good idea before throwing resources at the sound system and hoping for the best.

Not all rooms are created equal. Some are impossible to get good, even coverage at all frequencies...especially low frequencies that are prone to peaks and nulls due the room's geometry and resonance frequencies. Move a foot or two either left or right, forward or back, and your head might explode from too much bass. Move again and it seems to disappear until you move again.

Maybe hanging sound absorbing baffles from the ceiling, and installing some on the walls would help. Movie theaters have soft walls all around for good reason.

When I first heard the Everest II at CES some years ago, I told Greg Timbers there was a problem with lots of bass in the hotel suites' entry way and not enough in the listening area. He kind of shrugged and knew there wasn't much he do about it in that scenario because it was out of his control, being a hotel room. On the other hand, Glenn Phoenix of Westlake Audio...when the CES Show was at the Sahara... would sometimes go bonkers and line the entire hotel room with acoustic foam to isolate the speakers from the room...because he could.

[Ruediger]

25 Hz or 20 Hz to 100 Hz can be covered by one type of horn,you don't need to split that frequency range into two.

I estimated the dimensions, the horns wouldn't become unmanageably large.

But first we need more information about the available space.Ruediger

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-huge-basshorn

[Tube Radio]

In a way I can see why most modern pro audio subs only go to 40Hz. To build ones that go to 20Hz with any sort of efficiency will mean they are larger cabinets making them harder to carry around.


I had forgotten about the 4520 horns being short throw.

Thinking about it the bass did seem s little louder by the 4520s, but perhaps how they had them arranged pointing towards the middle of the rink made the effect of the bass lowering as one goes away from the horns less noticeable.

Looking at the super scooper plans it recommends a high pass of 30Hz as the driver unloads below that frequency.

http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=18superscooper

This youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72huQJDXJnw

Used an Eminence Omega pro 18A driver for the super scooper.

Is that a good choice, is there a better driver or is there a currently manufactured JBL driver that is better?

Those may work and I could perhaps use two in each corner. I then may not have to replace the amps as they use two QSC RMX2450 amps I think (can check model number Friday to be sure) in bridged mono mode for the four Yorkville subs and have a built in selectable 30Hz HP filter.

The rink owner owns a construction company as well so could easily have the cabinets built.

[Lee in Montreal]

18" drivers have more potential than 15" ones. Definitely the way to go. Could be new PD1850, or maybe used JBL 2242

Start with two Superscooper per corner. And add more along the way. Remember that your rink is huuuuge. ;-)
Check if your amps or crossovers have 48db high pass filters.

[edgewound]

18" drivers have more potential than 15" ones. Definitely the way to go. Could be new PD1850, or maybe used JBL 2242

Start with two Superscooper per corner. And add more along the way. Remember that your rink is huuuuge. ;-)
Check if your amps or crossovers have 48db high pass filters.

21" drivers have even more potential than 18".

I don't understand the need to get all the way down to 20Hz when 30Hz is perfectly sufficient for a music playback system, unless you want to knock down the building and the people within it.

Bottom line...way too much bass is just obnoxious and actually can be abusive to patrons of the venue.

In my not so humble opinion, anyway .

[Lee in Montreal]

21" drivers have even more potential than 18".

I don't understand the need to get all the way down to 20Hz when 30Hz is perfectly sufficient for a music playback system, unless you want to knock down the building and the people within it.

Bottom line...way too much bass is just obnoxious and actually can be abusive to patrons of the venue.

In my not so humble opinion, anyway .

I agree totally with you that getting it down to 30Hz will be enough. An nice boost from 70Hz down and you can get some lively bass. Not to mention than to get under 30Hz, a lot of power is needed. But that cab must have a good response from 30 to 70Hz, where it counts. Unlike the 4520 that starts falling down from 70Hz... Let's not forget that today's music has a lot more deep bass content that 1970s disco... ;-) Therefore, the cabinets that were designed for that type of music might no longer be efficient for EDM.

BTW I don't think I mentioned going down to 20Hz ;-)

[Tube Radio]

The idea for 20Hz is that a lot of modern rap, hip hop ETC... Has bass that low and doesn't really sound right if that low bass isn't there.

30Hz would be sufficient though.



Unfortunately I cannot find that driver for sale on any website in the USA. Would have to order from the UK and have them shipped here.

At the price they go for I seriously doubt the rink owner would want to spend that much unless it is proven those drivers will make a huge improvement.

Far as I know I think the HP crossover is 24 db/octave.



Lee, you didn't, but I did.

[Lee in Montreal]

Looking at the super scooper plans it recommends a high pass of 30Hz as the driver unloads below that frequency.

http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=18superscooper

This youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72huQJDXJnw

Used an Eminence Omega pro 18A driver for the super scooper.
Is that a good choice, is there a better driver or is there a currently manufactured JBL driver that is better?

Is the Eminence driver a good choice? I dunno, but it is cheap. Maybe worth testing. Qts might be a tad high for a horn loaded cab at 0.31
Also, looking at the response graph, you can see it starts falling from 100Hz.

I suggest you keep on looking or just get a set and test it. Can you borrow a variety of drivers and do tests and measurements?

BTW It is a good thing that the owner could build these cabs. Start with two, just to practice the building process and test them with various drivers.

@ Edgewound. Yes, you're correct. 21" might be cool too. Almost flat down to 30Hz... But the mop guy will be busy cleaning up just in front of the scoops... ;-)

[Lee in Montreal]

The idea for 20Hz is that a lot of modern rap, hip hop ETC...

if you want that much meat below or round 30Hz, then look for Bertha's and Levan horns. They'll make you puke your bowels ;-)

Seeing that you have contractors to make some wood work, might well be worth testing one. They would use the same 18" drivers as the scoop. Each cab takes four 4'x8' ;-)

Lee

[Tube Radio]

Once the owner gets some other projects finished around the rink and the whole complex (expanded restaurant, water park ETC...) I'll mention to him about upgrading the subs and maybe see if he can build one. That means I may have a few months yet to plan this all out.

I may try searching the internet and seeing what drivers others have used with the super scoopers and what results they had.

Far as I'm concerned going down to 30Hz should be good enough.

I could still use the QSC amps as each driver is 8 ohms and it will be two in parallel for a 4 ohm load.


I wonder something. Would it be possible to make a double 18" super scooper and gain more LF response or would the cabinet be a good bit larger than the single 18 super scooper?

[Lee in Montreal]

A single cabinet will be stiffer than a double one. Just cluster them side by side. Two cabs will go lower as you will combine their mouth areas. I think that to actually fully use the 30Hz capability, you'll need four side by side. ;-) But placing two in corners will help boost the bottom octave as the walls become part of the cabinet. Sort of. ;-).

Lee