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Thread: Skating rink bass build

  1. #46
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    I haven't visited other places other than other rinks.

    The one rink which uses the JBL 4520 scoops has nice sounding bass and what the cabinets cannot reproduce seem to be negated by how good what the cabinets can reproduce do sound.

    I went to one rink in Atlanta that was using several old Electrovoice (I think) speakers which used some sort of aperiodic vented midrange which had the cleanest clearest sound I had ever heard in a skating rink, but the bass was lacking due to only using one dual 15" sub cabinet.

    Another used two dual 15" ported JBL cabinets, but they either weren't set up right or didn't go much below 40Hz.

    I think a lot of places don't try for the extremely deep bass because they either don't see a point or the necessary space isn't there or they don't want to spend what it will cost ETC...

  2. #47
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    Sorry to hear they are getting on your nerves, you've been given good advice, the pro install guys over there(including one from QSC) have made some excellent suggestions, such as a mono centrally flown cluster/array or individual subs under/over the existing full range cabs, that you will need multi channel DSP to control eq, time alignment etc, you just aren't listening-they've explained issues you'll face with delay, issues with a wall of subs at one end beating up skaters as they go past,the inescapable physics of trying to fill that space at 30hz when 40hz and good kick at 60-80hz is what you really need. I recommend the owner engages a pro install company.

  3. #48
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    They are giving good advice, but I feel they aren't necessarily exploring all the options such as scoops or other larger format horns.

    What I would like to see is all possible options no matter how expensive just so I can see why some things are not practical as I often have to be shown why an idea won't work.

    That said knowing from experience dealing with my dad (auto mechanic and I'm not) some people who are very knowledgeable at what they do sometimes think others know it as good as they do and may explain things very technical thinking the person surely understands or explain things not quite good enough thinking the person should surely know the rest. For me it's got to be explained in a way that this non-expert can easily understand.

    All that said it is a great forum over there and that QSC employee did provide some very useful information concerning the tops I am using at the rink.

    The rink I used to skate at uses four JBL 4520 cabinets with one in each corner and the bass seems to sound ok across the whole floor. It was lacking in the deep bass for sure, but they seemed to do a reasonably good job of covering the floor with what bass they could reproduce.

    The 18" super scoopers will of course go a little lower and might be the more reasonable choice for better bass than what I have now even if I cannot get a -3dB point of 30Hz. Suppose I could use one of the QSC 4 channel amps with DSP to power the scoops and the DSP will allow me to make the scoops sound their best over the frequency range they can reproduce. Perhaps just like with the JBL 4520 scoops if I get the scoopers sounding very good, the bass they cannot reproduce won't be missed by me or anyone else.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Don't forget either that you will also have to shape the sound to your liking. Most of the bass happens between, say, 35Hz and 80Hz. Then you get that round "comfort" bass around 40 to 60Hz. Obviously, you also need to have cabs that can reproduce the range you want. ;-)

    My take is that you will need to experiment, not just take comments for face value. First try analyzing the material you want to reproduce. Does the music you play really have that much 30Hz content? In these days of MP3 and earbuds, you will be surprised. What about borrowing a pair of 4520s or any other bass bins and play with them for a day at the rink while there's nobody? See what these cabs give you in raw form, and then shape the sound to your liking? What about spending a few hundred bucks and build one or two big bass horns? Some of them are designed for cheap 18" Eminence woofers, which you can also probably borrow.

    BTW Who knew that Richard Long did the install at the Empire Skate rink in 1980? Bass bins (looks like four Waldorf) in the center.

    https://massappeal.com/empire-skatin...rsary-closing/


  5. #50
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    Unfortunately I don't know of any bass bins I can borrow at the moment.

    Perhaps I can build the scoopers then use a larger bass horn somewhere in the rink for the lower bass or perhaps two scoopers per corner will reach 35Hz better than the current subs and be enough.

    What was mentioned on the other forum is the current subs how they are configured with them being in such a large space I wouldn't get much bass response under around 55Hz. So perhaps that is what I am actually hearing and not getting anywhere near flat response as I go lower in frequency as it does seem like the bass is stronger as the frequency of the bass goes higher.

    I could always do the scoopers and later on if I should find it necessary add a larger bass horn for the lower bass.

    I know from listening to some hip-hop on my car stereo, home stereo and hearing others car stereos a lot of it does have strong low bass. Down to 20Hz, maybe not as much, but definitely to around 30Hz.

    That said once I present a design and the cabinets are built and installed I have to go with whatever sound I get, but if it is any improvement over what I have now I will be happy.

    Think they are doing the sound system sometime late this year so I still have a few months in which to work it all out.

    Shaping the sound to my liking would work as I do have good ears and know when something sounds right and when it don't, but I also will get the opinions of others once it is set up and tweaked properly to see what they think.

    For a skating rink the sound system is very important as the sound quality can determine if people skate or think about how bad the sound is.

    My goal is to provide the best possible sound system within reason.

  6. #51
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    This is a response given a friend of mine by the mighty Geo. A.

    "You are trying to develop a speaker system that sounds good to you rather than conforming to a set of test specifications. Any advice I give you is only guesswork."

    The main difference in the above pet project and yours is that the above is self financed. It looks like you would like your pet project financed by the rink owner. You obviously know what you want to do so it is up to you to sell it.

    While not knocking scoops, there is a myriad of reasons why they have fallen from favor in the proaudio arena. It's not suprising that you are met with resistance in trying to get them implemented. As for getting a sound company to provide you a study on all options including obsolete systems and explaining it all to you on your level of understanding seems an aweful lot to ask.

    If you can't buy a takeout system or duplicate one you like, you are not only swimming up stream but are faced with a waterfall. Currently there are horn loaded subs and horn loaded full range boxes that will smoke anything made less than a decade ago.

    As for (relative term warning) inexpensive power, I am horsing around with a UK made tour grade 20,000 watt two/four channel amp that is only 2u tall, yeah 3.5" tall with on board DSP, and it sounds great.

    This isn't given with any intent to offend. Honestly I held to the old ways pretty strongly but in the last several years have seen a new light. It shines brightly.

    All the best,
    Barry.





    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  7. #52
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    It's more along of wanting to know what ways there are of doing the bass and a brief explanation of the pros and cons of each method.

    In my opinion going with more modern high powered subs and the amps to drive them can be a rather expensive way to do it especially when it will take more than a few cabinets to achieve a frequency response of at least 40Hz in such a large space.

    Whereas doing something with horns which are more efficient would mean less boxes which equates to less amplifier power needed and less overall money being spent.

    Thing is I don't know how much money the rink wants to spend on the sound system so whatever I do has to work reasonably well and not be extremely expensive.

  8. #53
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    Have to ask, what's the point of all this without a definitive goal and budget?

    Any and all suggestions are useless until you know what the client is willing to spend, and an actual goal set.

    Did the owner of the rink even engage you in upgrading their system? Or is this something you're doing on your own and hoping they go for it?

  9. #54
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    They are planning on upgrading their system later this year and I explained the deficiencies and said I'd ask around on forums for the right subs that should be used. They did agree.

    The budget goal far as I'm concerned is getting the best bang for their money.

    If for instance I could achieve the same goal with 8 scoopers as i could with 16 dual 18 QSC subs I'd choose the scoopers as the cost would be less.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tube Radio View Post
    In my opinion going with more modern high powered subs and the amps to drive them can be a rather expensive way to do it especially when it will take more than a few cabinets to achieve a frequency response of at least 40Hz in such a large space.
    I think you'll find that building high quality low frequency horns will prove that making them is far less inexpensive than it may appear on the surface. If you have a weekend warrior building the horns for fun they may become cost effective, but paying for professionally built horns will make factory built bass reflex cabinets with large amps seem like bargains.


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  11. #56
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    If I did go with horns the rink owner also owns a construction company so it wouldnt cost him much to build them.

  12. #57
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    Good, they're on board and realize the need to upgrade. You still need a budget. Everyone wants "best bang for the buck", but 5 bucks, $500, $5000...it makes a big difference. Find out what they are willing to spend on the entire upgrade, and if that budget includes them building whatever cabinets you decide on. Once you know that, you can start looking at the gear necessary to achieve(or come as close as you can to) your goals.

    Having them capable of building cabinets is great, but it will still cost money. A large bass horn can easily take 4-5 sheets of good quality plywood, compared to maybe 1-2 sheets for a typical, bass reflex enclosure of suitable size. Baltic Birch would be ideal, not the "cabinet grade" stuff found at Home Depot/Lowe's/Menards...whatever you've got in your parts. BB plywood costs roughly $80-100/sheet. So, as an example, let's say you want to build 4 large bass horns, you're looking at roughly $2k in materials alone.

  13. #58
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    Oh ok didn't know materials were all so expensive.

    Plus factor in having to pay the employee to build the cabinets.

    It may be cheaper to find some 4520 cabinets and try them.

    Perhaps 8 of them with a pair in each corner will work good enough.

  14. #59
    Member Radley's Avatar
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    Hello,
    I looked up the Yorkville subs and they don't look too bad. Sensitivity is 105dB with 139dB peak. They want a 4,000 watt amp per cabinet. Yorkville calls the design a "basspipe multiple flare horn".

    I'm guessing the subs aren't getting 4,000 watts at 8 ohms to each cabinet?

    I'm also curious about the 100Hz crossover point between the 8" QSC's? One might want to bump that up to 150Hz?

  15. #60
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    Each of the two QSC amps are run in bridged mono with two subs in parallel.

    I've found that when I lowered the crossover to 70Hz the bass was a bit better and the overall sound quality improved a good bit.

    It also told me that I really didn't need anything exotic like large horns or a load of regular subs and that adding one sub in each of the other corners will be enough.

    Last night it became blatantly obvious that the mids and highs aren't very clear.

    Based on that I recommended this option to the rink.

    One JBL SRX828SP per corner

    Some JBL SRX812P for the tops.

    The nice thing there is they can be connected to a computer via Ethernet which permits me to get the sound dialed in just right. I can even use a tablet and be in the middle of the rink while I dial in the sound.

    Here's some pictures. How many other tops will I need with one hanging above each sub and where should the other tops be hung and how high?











    Also given the speakers are powered I thought about using a wireless audio transmitter and receiver to reduce the chance of a ground loop.

    Is that a good idea or will it be ok to connect them via regular audio cables?

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