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Thread: Skating rink bass build

  1. #1
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    Skating rink bass build

    I have been djing at a rink for a few months.

    They use several QSC K8 powered speakers and four Yorkville LS1208 subs.

    I have adjusted the system as good as I possibly can, but the subs just aren't good enough.

    Here's what I was thinking.

    Four JBL 4520 cabinets with one in each corner for 100-40Hz.

    Two larger bass horns one at each end of the rink for 40-20Hz.

    I chose the 100Hz frequency as the QSC speakers have a switch for external subwoofer which inserts a high pass at 100Hz and that would simplify things as I wouldn't need an active crossover. Also the QSC speakers have a low frequency response of -6DB at 61Hz.

    I plan on using Yamaha PX8 power amps with one for two 4520 cabinets and one for each bass horn due to those amps having built in DSP which will allow me to make the speakers sound their best.

    Here's a couple pictures of the rink.





    The subs are in only two corners which is part of the problem.

  2. #2
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, the photobucket linked photo also leads to pop up scam ads.

    -_-

  3. #3
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Why bass horns? They were really practical when a Crown DC300 was a big amp. Today's drivers handle gobs of power and Crown and others offer gobs of power at reasonable prices. I think you'll find, like everyone else has, that the modern crop of high powered bass reflex cabinets will give you superior performance.


    Widget

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    Grumpy those are ads photobucket uses unfortunately.

    Mr. Widget, sheer power isn't always the best way to go.

    Ever seen a proper horn loaded woofer/subwoofer putting out insane levels of bass with the speaker cone barely moving?

    Also efficiency is another reason as I can cover the area properly with less power than I could with bass reflex cabinets.

  5. #5
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tube Radio View Post

    Mr. Widget, sheer power isn't always the best way to go.

    Ever seen a proper horn loaded woofer/subwoofer putting out insane levels of bass with the speaker cone barely moving?

    Also efficiency is another reason as I can cover the area properly with less power than I could with bass reflex cabinets.
    Ok, let us know how it turns out.


    Widget

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    I'm sure it will be good with help from those who have dealt with the horn loaded speakers.

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    Member KCCT82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tube Radio View Post
    Grumpy those are ads photobucket uses unfortunately.

    Mr. Widget, sheer power isn't always the best way to go.

    Ever seen a proper horn loaded woofer/subwoofer putting out insane levels of bass with the speaker cone barely moving?

    Also efficiency is another reason as I can cover the area properly with less power than I could with bass reflex cabinets.
    It's gonna cost you a lot more money, space, and time to set up proper bass horns. I'd go with widget's idea.
    Keith

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    More pictures, please

    Can you post pictures of the 4 corners, so that one can estimate the available space.

    Ruediger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruediger View Post
    Can you post pictures of the 4 corners, so that one can estimate the available space.

    Ruediger
    Yes as Widget, reflex all the way plenty of plans for 2x18" available online.

    http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=gsub
    or a few of these...
    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...sub-184sub.jpg

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    It will be Friday before I can get any more pictures.

    I prefer not putting gobs of power into sealed cabinets when there's great sounding horn loaded cabinets which can do the same and more on less power.

    If you've ever seen the posts from a few years ago a form member made about the El Dorado Bumper Cars he owned before he passed on or have been there to hear the sound system you will know how good bass horns used properly cap sound

  11. #11
    Member KCCT82's Avatar
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    Yes, efficiency is a good thing.

    Yes, I'm pretty sure most if not all the members contributing to this thread have heard low frequency horns.

    BUT, is it really necessary in your case? Is it worth the trouble? Of perhaps even feasible? So far, the general opinion is no.

    Also, if you really want "proper" bass horns, then forget about the 4520, I don't see how a tiny 3-4ft scoop is gonna give you proper horn loading down to 40hz.

    "Proper bass horns" - Harder to design, harder to build, unpredictable results.

    Reflex/Sealed - Easier to design, easier to build, almost guaranteed to be successful, especially if you build sealed boxes.
    Keith

  12. #12
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Why bass horns? They were really practical when a Crown DC300 was a big amp. Today's drivers handle gobs of power and Crown and others offer gobs of power at reasonable prices. I think you'll find, like everyone else has, that the modern crop of high powered bass reflex cabinets will give you superior performance.


    Widget
    Well. You'll need 3 or 4 times the power and twice the number of drivers if going to a bass reflex system.

    In his previous post, I suggested TubeRadio to go to a modern bass horn such as Mog Mogale 18" Super Scoopers for more response below 60 Hz. The 4520 being technically quite outdated. Not to mention that the volume of that rink is huge. He will need more than 4 bass cabs for people to start feeling the bass, not just hearing it.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tube Radio View Post
    It will be Friday before I can get any more pictures.

    I prefer not putting gobs of power into sealed cabinets when there's great sounding horn loaded cabinets which can do the same and more on less power.

    If you've ever seen the posts from a few years ago a form member made about the El Dorado Bumper Cars he owned before he passed on or have been there to hear the sound system you will know how good bass horns used properly cap sound
    Tiny. It is how I would describe the volume that Scott had to pressurize... You probably have 20 times that volume, requiring 20 times the equipment...

    In my younger days, I would go to a club with a 40' x 40' dance floor with low ceiling. Four corners w/ two 4520 cabinets per corner. That's eight 4520s for a tiny fraction of the volume you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCCT82 View Post
    Yes, efficiency is a good thing.

    Yes, I'm pretty sure most if not all the members contributing to this thread have heard low frequency horns.

    BUT, is it really necessary in your case? Is it worth the trouble? Of perhaps even feasible? So far, the general opinion is no.

    Also, if you really want "proper" bass horns, then forget about the 4520, I don't see how a tiny 3-4ft scoop is gonna give you proper horn loading down to 40hz.

    "Proper bass horns" - Harder to design, harder to build, unpredictable results.

    Reflex/Sealed - Easier to design, easier to build, almost guaranteed to be successful, especially if you build sealed boxes.

    The spec of the 4520 is 42 Hz so that would handle the bass nicely then some larger horns specifically for 40-20Hz for the lower bass.

    I've heard bass reflex subwoofer cabinets before (mostly car audio) and they sounded ok...

    I've heard the 4520 cabs at another local rink and they sounded much more natural.

    In the end it depends on what the owner wants to go with.

    I doubt very seriously he is going to want to shorten the rink any for installing big horns for 40-20Hz and I don't know if there's room for the super scoopers either.

    Its tempting to get some of those 3 cu ft 15' sealed sub boxes parts express sells and stick in the recommended Dayton Audio driver, but that would require gobs of power.

    The current subs do ok and would have been much better if they either put one in each of the four corners or put one pair in each of the two remaining corners.

    I can tell they lack in output under 40 Hz though and I have the 30Hz HP filter on the amps turned on so the subs don't unload the drivers and damage them.

    In a way I'm wondering if it is ok to have the best of both worlds using the 4520 down to 42Hz and some sealed subs for 42-20Hz.

    How low will the mog mogale Super scoopers go?

    I myself would tend to use sealed cabinets, but I can only imagine how many drivers it would take to fill up that space properly not to mention the extra amplifiers needed. Would wind up using much more power than a good set of horn loaded subs which would equate to more money spent by the owners.

    Another thing to consider is there is a bowling alley there right next to the skate floor separated by a wall so I don't know if the sheer vibration a bunch of sealed cabinets would produce will affect the lanes. That's where horns are nice. Not nearly as much cabinet vibration, yet they go louder than any sealed sub could ever dream of doing plus there's way less excursion of the driver in a horn loaded system.

  15. #15
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tube Radio View Post
    If you've ever seen the posts from a few years ago a form member made about the El Dorado Bumper Cars he owned before he passed on or have been there to hear the sound system you will know how good bass horns used properly cap sound
    This is what Scott ultimately used for bass in his Eldorado Bump Your Ass Off venue:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...s-for-Big-Bass


    Widget

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