Isn't it interesting that 3 or 4 years ago Pioneer Pro Audio has included in its catalog the 40 years old Bertha and Levan horns designs from Richard Long & Associates ?
http://pioneerproaudio.com/en/produc...e/wav_sub.html
http://pioneerproaudio.com/en/produc.../wav_horn.html
http://www.lightsoundjournal.com/201...eer-pro-audio/
Even using the famous tweeter pods as designed by RLA
Very nice.
Didn't know Pioneer was into pro audio.
Goes to show that some designs are stil good today.
Don't know if the rink would have enough for a pioneer system put together by pioneer, but that would be the way to go.
EDIT: I liked what I saw on Pioneer pro's website so much that I decided to present that as an option to the rink.
You won't have the money for it. But you can replicate it somehow. Especially if you have access you carpenters / woodworkers.Originally Posted by Tube Radio
Have you read this? in particular page 8/9. ;A practical guide to bass arrays. http://www.voidaudio.pl/attachments/...gielski%29.pdf
and this from JBL;https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttach..._Guide_v06.pdf
I would highly suggest not going wireless. Get bulk, shielded, 2 conductor + ground cable and connectors to build your own balanced interconnects...XLRs are better if both source and end devices accept them, TRS is next down in line.
If you choose to go with passive, instead of active cabinets, place the amplifiers as close to them as possible to avoid long speaker cable runs. The longer the speaker cable run is, the larger the guages has to be i.e. more expensive, adds resistance, lowers damping factors...
Don't know how much the rink can spend, but I do know the owner owns an apartment complex across the road, owns a construction company and also is building a water park on the same property as the rink.
So perhaps they would have the money if it can be proven that the benefits will outweigh the cost.
Thinking about it I wouldn't go wireless.
I'm so used to ground loops being a potential issue with unbalanced connections that I automatically assumed balanced connections had the same issue.
That one article by Roger Mogale I had sen previously as someone on the other forum had posted it.
Was eye opening at how difficult it can be to get the bass just right.
That said based on the experiment of lowering the crossover frequency and getting better bass I feel that four of the JBL subs with one in each corner will be good enough.
Using the JBL tops and a lower crossover frequency will help as well.
So I'm thinking one top over each sub and one between two columns angled down towards the skate floor so that no two tops directly face each other.
That would give a total of 12 tops.
Getting back to this.
I would love to use these speakers
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/i...uis-dance-club
namely the sub, but at nearly $7,000 each I doubt the rink will buy any and I'm sure the other speakers in that series are expensive as well not to mention none of it being self powered so amps would be required, but if the owner wanted to go all out I believe that's the series I would go for.
If going with that series I'd want a pro to decide how many of what speakers were needed and where to put them.
Perhaps 1-2 subs and one MD3 per corner with 8 MD2 speakers around the rink and some MD1 speakers dispersed around to fill in the high frequencies.
Or 8 arrays of one MD7 sub and one MD49 each.
Would be some serious cash needed though.
The previous part of this post is basically just some what ifs.
Now the real plan is to start out with four of these subs one per corner with the ability to add one more per corner at a later date if it is found that more are needed.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/p...eries/srx828sp
and 8 of these tops with one hanging above each sub and two each on the long walls
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/p...series/srx812p
On a side note I did notice a huge improvement in clarity Saturday night when I moved the left channel of the computer input to the adjacent stereo input channel which then allowed me to have a mono signal out of the mixer so I could remove a stereo to mono combiner that the mixer fed which I think may have used two transformers.
Before the upper midrange sounded a bit muddy and quite harsh with some music. Now it sounds much better to the point where I'd almost consider keeping the QSC speakers in place and just do the JBL subs, but other factors such as the 8" woofer size demand I replace them.
I myself try to avoid using transformers for anything pro audio related as they often can and do negatively affect the sound quality and are usually just a quick cheap fix instead of doing it right.
Time for an update.
I got the current system tweaked as good as it could be and removing a stereo to mono adapter (uses transformers i think) from the mixer output cleared up the upper midrange and treble.
Just when I thought it couldn't get any better I connected a USB sound card to the computer used for the music.
If my jaw could have hit the floor it would have as I was dumbfounded at how much better the bass sounded.
The subs simply disappeared and only the bass was heard. In fact the bass seemed to be better distributed across the whole skate floor.
The integration of the subs and wall speakers is now much better.
Only thing I can figure is that there was some sort of phase shift in the bass coming from the onboard sound.
I ordered the cables and connectors to build a pair of balanced cables so that I can run a balanced line to the mixer which will eliminate a ground loop isolator I built with a pair of EDCOR 15K-15K transformers.
That may clean up the sound even more.
On a side note I skated at the rink with the JBL 4520 cabinets and realized they really aren't a good choice for modern hip-hop and R&B given they don't reprodce the low bass at all with any real authority, but would have been fine for the music out when the rink was built.
I am hoping that soon the sound system upgrades will start.
They had delays with their water park which I'm sure put the restaurant addition behind and also put the sound system upgrades behind as they are going to be done when the restaurant is almost finished.
The current Yorkville subs have a peak SPL of 139 dB. Now with two side by side does that increase at all?
The JBL SRX828SP subs have a max SPL of 141 dB
The Yorkville is rated at 2000 watts (4000 peak / 1000 continuous)
The JBL is rated at 2000 watts peak (1000 watts X2) 1500 watts continuous (750 watts X 2)
Given I will have one JBL sub in each corner is that going to be enough or should I do two per corner?
The JBL has the same -3 dB point as the Yorkvilles which is 35Hz, but I suppose a little eq could help that and the built in amp in the JBL subs may have a setting for that.
I'm also thinking about adding an extra JBL SRX812P in the DJ booth fed from one of the aux sends of the mixer which will serve as a monitor speaker. That way I can make it to where the mic doesn't feed that speaker so there's no chance of feedback.
When the system starts to be redone I'm going to recommend they do a complete rewire far as the balanced line to each speaker input.
Now should I have a stereo feed to each speaker since the mixer does have a couple of stereo channel inputs or is a mono feed good enough?
I'll also recommend that instead of how they have it now with connectors spliced into the cable for each speaker (can possibly cause hum pickup as the splices are unshielded) that they use the line output jacks which are in parallel with the inputs to feed the next speaker with the only split in the cable then having to be the sub by the DJ booth which can be done in the booth itself as I don't see a point in routing the main signal wires to the sub then back in the booth to go up the wall.
I get the impression that the AV/computer guy there trusts me as he asked my opinion on how to feed the sound to the restaurant addition and outdoor bar.
What really surprises me is the fact that I'm getting decent bass response without resorting to the gobs of subs in clusters the other forum I posted on said to use.
I think that has a lot to do with the tops and subs being in proper phase now without the phase shift in the low bass that the internal sound card must have done.
Add 3db for a pair and another 3db for mutual coupling
That would be 145 dB max with the yorkvilles given there's two per corner.
Now because there's only subs in two corners will one JBL per corner sound louder across the whole rink or will I need two subs per corner?
Active speakers might negate this, as their DSP capability may be powerful enough to not need an external processor. Having said that, it's best practice to run a separate feed to each speaker from the control booth, or wherever the main system equipment will live. This way, if things need to be reconfigured down the line and additional processing becomes necessary, the wiring is already in place. Since you'll be pulling new wire anyway, it's a small cost difference(price of wire) to pull a few extra runs at the same time.
The audience will be constantly moving and facing in all sorts of directions...go mono.
I may be wrong here, but it's generally better to stack drivers producing the same frequency ranges, like subs, then it is to place them side by side. Stacked gives a wider(horizontal), but shallower(vertical) polar, while side by side gives a tall(vertical), but narrow(horizontal) polar pattern. Speaker manufacturers try to overcome this issue with trapezoidal boxes designed for horizontal arrays, but they're still not ideal.
Also, keep in mind that, although active speakers with built in amps may seem like the best thing since sliced bread, there are downsides. Mainly, if the amp module dies, and they do, you can't easily swap another amp in its place and keep the show going. Even if you bought spare modules, you'd have to do the repair out among the audience, and if your hi-tops are flown you then have the added difficulty of getting up there to do so. You don't want to drag out ladders/scaffolding/lifts to get up there while the place is full of customers.
The plan is to go mono.
Each speaker has two inputs so I had figured on using both so that I am not limited to a mono mixer or a mixer set to mono or only using one channel of a stereo mixer provided the mixing at the speakers won't cause any issues with sound quality.
The second input is intended to be used with a separate source. As an example, audio from an instrument/music player/mixer into input 1, and a local microphone into input 2. You don't want to run a stereo signal to the box and use inputs 1+2 for your L+R signals. If your mixer doesn't have a mono output, you'll want to use a summing device and only use 1 input per speaker. It's possible the DSP has a summing feature built in, but that's quite a waste to use up 2 cables and inputs to sum at the box. No benefit of running a stereo signal to 1 speaker. Stereo only works in pairs, with some distance between them and a stationary audience facing said speakers.
Hadn't thought of that. Had figured that would be a good way to sum a stereo signal to mono.
Now the tops do have a sum output which I suppose is used to feed other speakers if two sources are used at one speaker.
The way the current speakers are wired is one long cable with short cables spliced in to the main cable with plugs on each short cable to plug into the powered speakers. The issue there is each splice is out in the open so at each splice the signal wires are unshielded which is a good way to pick up hum which I do hear slightly if there's no audio playing.
I will recommend running wire to the first speaker which will be the sub then using the output jack (paralleled with the input) to feed the next speaker and so on and so forth until all are connected.
The only issue is the sub that will be near the booth. I'll just use a splitter in the booth to feed the line to that sub and the rest of the speakers.
Another option which will give the flexibility you mentioned is to use a rack mount patch panel with the jacks in parallel fed by the mixer with each speaker's signal wire going to the panel. I seriously doubt they will go for that as it will mean that much more wire being used.
Originally there was a stereo to mono box used, but it made the upper midrange sound quite shrill.
I knew the QSC powered tops were quality so I figured it was that box.
Removed the box and used just one output from the mixer and the sound cleared up quite nicely.
The way the sound card connects is to two mono channels since the card has a balanced output (necessary to clear up a ground loop) and the two stereo inputs are unbalanced while the line inputs on the mono channels are balanced. That works good as there is a mono feed to the output.
Overall the sound is much better than when I first started working with it, but the JBL speakers will make so much more of an improvement.
I use magic by Olivia Newton John as a test track as her voice is high enough to test the clarity of the upper midrange which on a proper system her voice should come through without any shrillness and you should hear every breath she takes. Also tests the midbass as there's a drum part that on a proper system is very easily heard, but if the midbass is not right or the crossover between the subs and tops isn't set right that drum part is very hard to hear.
Having ran the sound system at church for around 10 years I notice the small things others might miss and it is very easy for me to hear when something is not right.
Sometimes if I want to hear one speaker I'll cup my hands behind each ear and look at the speaker standing close to it.
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