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Widget
...lays to rest the idea that vinyl is superior to good ol' CDs.Originally Posted by 1audiohack
Great stuff, Barry. Thanks for sharing that!
This discussion began on another thread.
Widget
...lays to rest the idea that vinyl is superior to good ol' CDs.
Great stuff, Barry. Thanks for sharing that!
Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA
Does it?
A quiet record may only be the equivalent to 10-11 bits, but other than noise floor, I'm not convinced digital is superior.
Widget
Which brings us back to something we barely discussed a few years ago - the engineering/mastering whatever on the CDs vs the albums. I'm not sure what the deal is, CDs are technically superior, but I tend to think what is put on the CD is (sometimes) inferior. If that makes any sense.
Pretty much.
From an absolute bandwidth and lack of noise standpoint, digital has much greater capabilities than analog...but the recording itself does matter. From the video that Barry posted, the looks of a sinewave between digital and analog are identical.
This video is indicative of what most people prefer to listen to. That said, vinyl is a more romantic ritual...if you're into that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnxexlHRY2E
Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA
I'm pretty confident that a CD playing a 1KHz sine wave will look identical on a calibrated scope whether it is played on a $30 CD player or the high end player of your choice. I'm also confident that even a casual listener will hear differences between the two players when playing a well recorded CD of music played through a high quality system.
Therefore digital audio accurately re-creating a sine wave tells us some information, but not the whole picture.
Widget
I've played with this more, of late, than for many years.
I unearthed the turntable a while back and using a Radial J33 phono pre-amp (yes, I tried several - in my price range - and there are audible differences) I've been buying vinyl with CD combo packages the past year or so. I can compare audibly (A/B) the WAV files on the CD (thru Bryston BDA-1) with the same track off the turntable. To my hearing, there's no argument - the sonic quality of vinyl is not matched by CD. I suspect there is some characteristic(s) we are not measuring - perhaps not easily measured. That said, for convenience, the vinyl doesn't get sufficient listening time!
Anyway, to argue the point is largely mooted by the convenience factor(s) alone. And, by the lack of WAF for larger-sized audio systems required for proper reproduction. So, I balance the want with the possible/needed. When it's my turn, it's vinyl - I happy to get up flip...
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
I'm honestly not trying to get into a pissing match over the merits of analog vs. digital, because they both have redeeming qualities in various sensory ways. A great recording is a great recording no matter the medium. Fact is, one of these mediums very handicapped by it's packaging.
Here's an article that interviews some recording industry heavy-weights from both the art-making and scientific and production side of the topic.
Hope you get a chance to read this. The two "Bobs", Bob Ludwig and Bob Clearmountain have pretty stellar credentials to have determining opinions on which is better technologically.
http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cd...-vinyl-5352162
Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA
Apples to apples comparisons have rarely been what this topic is about. Another elephant in the room is euphonics. What sounds pleasing to a listener is a wildfire in comparison to fidelity to the recording, media and process capabilities, and anything else measurable.
While certainly conditioned by the listening history of the individual and non audio factors like what gear looks like and whatever said listener has read and been told, what sounds pleasing is as variable as human personality, and the physical condition of of the biological hearing system as well. It is also heavily dependent on circumstances. My audio friend shares my preference for audio that sounds most like what went into the microphone. Like me, he is a long time "been there and done that" system owner/listener. We both answered the siren call of vinyl, twice, of the tube revival, of large speakers and small, and of all sorts of personal listening. I am surprised that while he is a quintessential vinyl lover, he (as have I) has sworn off tubes completely and knows tape is not in the hunt for recording accuracy.
But, what we are both most surprised at is his eventual discovery that, despite despising bass heads in general, with portable listening he has come to prefer boosted bass. In fact, almost everyone arrives at this point sooner or later. The euphonic presentation of tape, vinyl, tubes, and colored speakers (JBL Centuries, anyone?) have appeal to most listeners at some point, but wanting extra bass from portable listening seems to dominate. Don't ask me, I have not authored a tome on this. Sometimes even I want a touch of it, and in my case it seems to be emotional. Emotion is a term/condition that travels the halls of euphonia with the frequency that peanut butter ends up with jelly. I do suspect that the privacy of private listening is likely it. Like listening to a speaker system in a house when no one else is home, one does not give a rat's ass if monster bass might put someone else off. Music lives in the midrange, but adrenaline and testosterone live in the bass.
Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears
Hi,
May be interesting how many bits are recorded for each audio data sample
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comp..._Digital_Audio
As I have understood for 6 stereo ( 2 x 16bits) it is used 588 bits on any audio CD,
So for 6x2x16=192 bits, of real data bits would spend 588 bits
Over 3 times more.
May be I am wrong in understanding the data encoding scheme.
......Data encodingEdit
Each audio sample is a signed 16-bit two's complement integer, with sample values ranging from −32768 to +32767. The source audio data is divided into frames, containing twelve samples each (six left and right samples, alternating), for a total of 192 bits (24 bytes) of audio data per frame.
This stream of audio frames, as a whole, is then subjected to CIRC encoding, which segments and rearranges the data and expands it with parity bits in a way that allows occasional read errors to be detected and corrected. CIRC encoding also interleaves the audio frames throughout the disc over several consecutive frames so that the information will be more resistant to burst errors. Therefore, a physical frame on the disc will actually contain information from multiple logical audio frames. This process adds 64 bits of error correction data to each frame. After this, 8 bits of subcode or subchannel data are added to each of these encoded frames, which is used for control and addressing when playing the CD.
CIRC encoding plus the subcode byte generate 33-bytes long frames, called "channel-data" frames. These frames are then modulated through eight-to-fourteen modulation (EFM), where each 8-bit word is replaced with a corresponding 14-bit word designed to reduce the number of transitions between 0 and 1. This reduces the density of physical pits on the disc and provides an additional degree of error tolerance. Three "merging" bits are added before each 14-bit word for disambiguation and synchronization. In total there are 33 × (14 + 3) = 561 bits. A 27-bit word (a 24-bit pattern plus 3 merging bits) is added to the beginning of each frame to assist with synchronization, so the reading device can locate frames easily. With this, a frame ends up containing 588 bits of "channel data" (which are decoded to only 192 bits music).
The frames of channel data are finally written to disc physically in the form of pits and lands, with each pit or land representing a series of zeroes, and with the transition points—the edge of each pit—representing 1. A Red Book-compatible CD-R has pit-and-land-shaped spots on a layer of organic dye instead of actual pits and lands; a laser creates the spots by altering the reflective properties of the dye....
Regards
Ivica
Regarding digital vs analog, I would argue that isn't the issue: Dynamic Range: No Quiet = No Loud
I feel your pain, but that is another conversation. Poorly mastered over compressed music is available in all formats.
Widget
Amazing
2017 and it's still raging on
Of all the things in the world to waste time on haranguing, "proving" points about
You could easily come away with the impression that certain individuals were stock holders
Or maybe some sort of religion or sports team rivalry sort of thing
Hey, while we're at it, let's revisit the tubes versus solid state thing too!
Dead horse
I personally prefer my music on Lp whenever available but that's just what it is, my preference
I don't care which one measures or is technically better
I buy the format that sounds best to my ears
Spent a great deal of money on CD playback and could never get happy with it - never more happy than I am with records
Most of the time, overall
But there are certainly some records that just outright sound like shit to me so for that reason I do keep a couple CD players around
I don't feel as if I have to make a choice, prove a point or join a team in order to enjoy my music collection
I do like CDs for the car
The only thing I find a major disappointment with records, at times, is they are too much like wine or cigars or any natural product - they can be so different from example to example of the same recording
That due in large part to the fact that so much of their production is essentially handmade
But, as others have so clearly pointed out there are plenty of CDs that sound like shit too - I own a bunch and the titles one finds to be a dud or not to his liking are difficult to get rid of without it being a total loss
Nowadays no one wants them anymore, CDs that is - you can't get anything for them like you used to be able to, taking them back in for trade at the local music emporiums - not so the case with the records
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