Recommend tube preamp, please!

[pyonc]

Hi friends,

I see lots of good brands and high-end tube models out there in today's preamp world.
Can you recommend any affordable yet reliable tube preamp between $1,000~$2,000, including the vintage stuff.
Hopefully it can match well with my JBL 4343.
Thanks a lot for your insight and advice, as always.

[quindecima]

Run over here and take a look around.

https://www.audiogon.com/

[grumpy]

all single-ended in/out?
phono preamp included? (if so, MC and/or MM)
remote required?
readily available tube types?

You'll want a low noise floor with these efficient speakers. Choice of power amp can affect this.
"Inexpensive" tube preamps do not often meet this requirement (more critical for phono sections)

Also, understand that tube equipment will eventually/always require maintenance
(line/phono stages often quite a bit less than power amps, but tubes do eventually wear out).

Aesthetics and joy of operation also come into it (for me).

[Mr. Widget]

Tubes are cool... I have used and liked many tube preamps, but I don't believe they are inherently better than solid state and as Grumpy points out, tubes are not as easy to make quiet and tend to vary in performance over time.


Widget

[pyonc]

Thanks for your feedback.
Okay, how about the following vintage tube preamps that I have in mind, for example? I need a preamp with phono RCA input on the back.
McIntosh C20
Audio Research SP8
Conrad Johnson PV10

[grumpy]

I have a dedicated Audio Research phono preamp I enjoy, but I always wanted to try out a CJ pre.

[JeffW]

I need a preamp with phono RCA input on the back.

What type of phono cartridge do you use? The preamp requirements for moving magnet and moving coil cartridges can be quite different - but it's possible to use a step up transformer and moving coil cartridge into a moving magnet preamp, as well as some high output moving coil cartridges. Both types of cartridges typically use the same RCA plug, FWIW. I'm guessing you have MM or you would have mentioned that earlier.

Does anybody even make a moving coil tube phono stage? Kinda off my radar type thing there.

[grumpy]

Yes they do.

some are more suited to "high output" MC (say 2mV) and some to lower output types (perhaps 10x lower). Some try to do both.

[speakerdave]

Thanks for your feedback.
Okay, how about the following vintage tube preamps that I have in mind, for example? I need a preamp with phono RCA input on the back.
McIntosh C20
Audio Research SP8
Conrad Johnson PV10

I own a copy of each of the first two, and they are both on the shelf. Any C20 is very old and should be significantly rebuilt, an expensive proposition. There is high praise for this preamp (rebuilt) coming from various quarters, but I can't speak to that.

The AR SP8 is a very good preamp. It was revised, though, at least twice, and the later versions seem to catch more dollars in the second hand market. I like my original copy, but it has stood as my spare for years because I have another I like better, and that is the C-J P9. Not a perfect preamp, but probably the one I will be settling on for the foreseeable future.

It would be fair to say those two preamps represent two types of tube preamps. The SP-8 can be characterized as modern, accurate, maybe a little cool or analytical, the P9 as warm, passes the emotion threshold easily. But for me neither is the performance goal of an electronic audio device. That goal is transparency, a quality I have found to be elusive, transient, dependent on very good recordings, and not the property of any particular technology. My 'problem' is that I am not in the market for electronics that cost multiple tens of thousands or even multiple thousands of dollars. I hang on to the C20 because there may be a day when I'll rebuild it and that sought after transparency may be there.

For the time being, I find it most often with the P9, especially when coupled with the McIntosh MC30. Mind, I biamp the treble through a simple passive high pass into a world class beryllium compression driver on a horn designed for it, so I get whatever treble is available and the faults of the bass in the MC30 are irrelevant to me. I don't use a super tweeter, so the VVHF is not a concern. I use very good woofers and a very good bass amp, so I can live with the slight wooliness of the bass in the P9. I willingly live with it for the midrange, especially on phono which at moments can be amazingly real. I even go along with the fact that the three stage phono preamp inverts absolute phase while the line inputs do not, an extraordinary accommodation to price point, IMHO.

[pyonc]

What type of phono cartridge do you use? The preamp requirements for moving magnet and moving coil cartridges can be quite different - but it's possible to use a step up transformer and moving coil cartridge into a moving magnet preamp, as well as some high output moving coil cartridges. Both types of cartridges typically use the same RCA plug, FWIW. I'm guessing you have MM or you would have mentioned that earlier.

Does anybody even make a moving coil tube phono stage? Kinda off my radar type thing there.

Yes, you're right. I prefer MM, and currently Shure V15 type iii.
Turntable is Linn LP12, fitted with SME 3009 S2 Improved.
Usually I listen to jazz.

[pyonc]

I own a copy of each of the first two, and they are both on the shelf. Any C20 is very old and should be significantly rebuilt, an expensive proposition. There is high praise for this preamp (rebuilt) coming from various quarters, but I can't speak to that.

The AR SP8 is a very good preamp. It was revised, though, at least twice, and the later versions seem to catch more dollars in the second hand market. I like my original copy, but it has stood as my spare for years because I have another I like better, and that is the C-J P9. Not a perfect preamp, but probably the one I will be settling on for the foreseeable future.

It would be fair to say those two preamps represent two types of tube preamps. The SP-8 can be characterized as modern, accurate, maybe a little cool or analytical, the P9 as warm, passes the emotion threshold easily. But for me neither is the performance goal of an electronic audio device. That goal is transparency, a quality I have found to be elusive, transient, dependent on very good recordings, and not the property of any particular technology. My 'problem' is that I am not in the market for electronics that cost multiple tens of thousands or even multiple thousands of dollars. I hang on to the C20 because there may be a day when I'll rebuild it and that sought after transparency may be there.

For the time being, I find it most often with the P9, especially when coupled with the McIntosh MC30. Mind, I biamp the treble through a simple passive high pass into a world class beryllium compression driver on a horn designed for it, so I get whatever treble is available and the faults of the bass in the MC30 are irrelevant to me. I don't use a super tweeter, so the VVHF is not a concern. I use very good woofers and a very good bass amp, so I can live with the slight wooliness of the bass in the P9. I willingly live with it for the midrange, especially on phono which at moments can be amazingly real. I even go along with the fact that the three stage phono preamp inverts absolute phase while the line inputs do not, an extraordinary accommodation to price point, IMHO.

Thanks for sharing your useful insight on this topic. I'm inclined to C20 at the moment. Sometimes I wonder if it is the tube preamp that makes you feel 'warm' or 'musical'. Frankly I don't feel that kind of typical tube characteristics with my PrimaLuna tube power amp alone, which drives 4343 High/Mid drivers in bi-amp mode, while Krell KSA 50 drives the woofers. And my preamp at the moment is solid-state Marantz 3600, which I plan to replace with a tube preamp.

[Dieter]

Hi,
i run my DD66000 with a Hovland HP-100 line and a ML 335 and I am very happy. DAC is a T+A DAC 8, but I don’t like the internal volume control.

Source is a PC-Laptop with JRiver.

Regards Dieter

[BMWCCA]

Thanks for sharing your useful insight on this topic. I'm inclined to C20 at the moment. Sometimes I wonder if it is the tube preamp that makes you feel 'warm' or 'musical'. Frankly I don't feel that kind of typical tube characteristics with my PrimaLuna tube power amp alone, which drives 4343 High/Mid drivers in bi-amp mode, while Krell KSA 50 drives the woofers. And my preamp at the moment is solid-state Marantz 3600, which I plan to replace with a tube preamp.

As a C20 owner, I'd have to agree with Dave on issues of age and condition. My C20 was totally rebuilt by Dave O'Brien during a Mac Clinic . . . would that be 45-years ago? New tubes, the normal procedure before testing, wouldn't bring it into spec so Dave kept it overnight to work on. I still have the resulting performance report from the follow-up.

If it needed that much done back in 1972, I can't imagine what one would need today! The Clinic's answer to cross-talk between input sources way back then was that the military-grade circuit boards used were just "getting old".

I love my Mac and I'm never getting rid of it, but I keep it more for the nostalgia and wouldn't consider for a minute using it as the front-end for my 4345 system. Of course that's just my opinion.

[pyonc]

As a C20 owner, I'd have to agree with Dave on issues of age and condition. My C20 was totally rebuilt by Dave O'Brien during a Mac Clinic . . . would that be 45-years ago? New tubes, the normal procedure before testing, wouldn't bring it into spec so Dave kept it overnight to work on. I still have the resulting performance report from the follow-up.

If it needed that much done back in 1972, I can't imagine what one would need today! The Clinic's answer to cross-talk between input sources way back then was that the military-grade circuit boards used were just "getting old".

I love my Mac and I'm never getting rid of it, but I keep it more for the nostalgia and wouldn't consider for a minute using it as the front-end for my 4345 system. Of course that's just my opinion.

Thanks for your comment. just wonder what you mean by 'totally rebuilt' on your C20. All original parts replaced by new ones? In that case, I suspect the original sound characteristics McIntosh engineers intended change, too...

[BMWCCA]

Thanks for your comment. just wonder what you mean by 'totally rebuilt' on your C20. All original parts replaced by new ones? In that case, I suspect the original sound characteristics McIntosh engineers intended change, too...

As I recall, nearly every component on the circuit boards was replaced with new. These repairs were done by McIntosh engineers using McIntosh parts. The sole purpose of the Clinics was Proof of Performance, where the original specs were guaranteed. The story is that the original clinic was implemented to repair an issue in the early C20. In mine, they were chasing a distortion anomaly, and showed me the handful of replaced components at the time. I brought the C20 in without a complaint just for the testing which I'd been availing myself of for years at their invitation. If they were happy, I was happy. Would it help if I recorded it playing music with my cell phone and posted it to YouTube for you?