Westlake HR-1's are now home

[boputnam]

"I wonder if they are yet another set of 2235H's some genius thought to remove the mass rings from"

Was Bernie Becker able to provide that listing of all the components and such from Westlake? Maybe that would answer Giskard's query (and a good one at that! )

Otherwise, I wonder whether some of the lack of low-end response is room position / stand related?

It's hard to imagine the cabinets could be tuned "wrong". What can you post about the porting?

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by Giskard
Well something is definitely wrong then. I wonder if they are yet another set of 2235H's some genius thought to remove the mass rings from.

What do you mean by removing the mass rings from the 2235?

Can you give me/us information about it?

[Guido]

@ PSS Audio

If you remove the mass ring (50g ?) from a 2235H the cone weight only 105g instead of 155g.
This lift the Fs from 20 Hz to 23Hz and increase the sensitivity.
you will get somewhat of a 2234H

But I think Giskard will explain it more detailed

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by Guido

If you remove the mass ring (50g ?) from a 2235H the cone weight only 105g instead of 155g.
This lift the Fs from 20 Hz to 23Hz and increase the sensitivity.
you will get somewhat of a 2234H

Thank you for your answer.

As I have a melting pot of 4350/55:

4350A boxes with:
1 x 2231H
1 x 2231H with a 2235 cone
1 x 2202H
1 x 2441+2308
1 x 2405

I was wondering what will happen if I remove the mass ring out of 2231H with 2235 cones?

[4313B]

I'll start a new thread in Technical to address this hopefully once and for all

*****

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...=&threadid=414

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Originally posted by Giskard
"I don't believe these 2235's will ever sound as good as they did on extreme lows."

Well something is definitely wrong then. I wonder if they are yet another set of 2235H's some genius thought to remove the mass rings from.

Ok Giskard, I will bite, Is there a way I can verify the above?

I hope this is not the case.

Ken

[4313B]

The "easiest" way would be to measure their Fs.

It could just be that the tuning it different, in fact, I can't imagine it not being different. I think we would all be interested to know the Fb of those Westlakes

Were you running the 4345 biamped? Because if you weren't, that 5.4 mH coil was in the signal path and that would definitely cause a "fuller" bass response from the 2245H.

*****

Looking at your pictures it looks like those ports are longer than the 4350/4355 ports....... I can't remember at all what the length was on the 4350 and 4355 boxes.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Originally posted by Giskard
The "easiest" way would be to measure their Fs.

It could just be that the tuning it different, in fact, I can't imagine it not being different. I think we would all be interested to know the Fb of those Westlakes

Were you running the 4345 biamped? Because if you weren't, that 5.4 mH coil was in the signal path and that would definitely cause a "fuller" bass response from the 2245H.

*****

Looking at your pictures it looks like those ports are longer than the 4350/4355 ports....... I can't remember at all what the length was on the 4350 and 4355 boxes.

[B]

The 4345 were biamped using 5234A with 5145 cards.

Have never done Fs measurements before and have no clue how.

Here are some measurements re cabs

Ports are 4in. by 11 1/2in.

Internal:

42in wide
28in high
18in deep

This does not take into account the internal bracing or the volume of the 10in. enclosure which I believe is 1.5 cubic feet (not confirmed). I suspect the internal bracing is substantial based on the weight of each cab.

One other thing.

The original HR1 cabs did not have a Grey Goop dampening material applied to the interior. When these where overhauled and all drivers replaced 4 years ago, this material was applied increasing the weight from 371lbs per cab to 417. Also the fiberglass type material inside the cabs is not fiberglass but something else that is much more dense.

Up until now all enquiries to Westlake have been met with great enthusiam. When asked about internal volumes, dampening materials and port tuning they become somewhat less forthcoming. They did confirm the Mass Control Rings had not been removed and in fact where shocked to hear that some would do such a thing.

28x42x18=21168 square inches x 0.0005787 = 12.24 cubic feet per cab - 1.5 internal enclosure for 10in and were left with 11.19. I suspect by the time you alow for bracing and drivers these are probably around 9 cubic feet each.

Ken

[4313B]

"When asked about internal volumes, dampening materials and port tuning they become somewhat less forthcoming."

Not real surprising, they might not even know or remember.

"They did confirm the Mass Control Rings had not been removed and in fact where shocked to hear that some would do such a thing."

I was specifically thinking about how Cherokee Studios reconed a bunch of their 2231's and 2235's as 2234's because they thought 2234's sounded better. Also, other forum members have hinted at doing the same thing.


My guess is those Westlakes are tuned a bit lower than the 4345, 4350, or 4355 and if you're accustomed to the 4345 then you will notice a difference. There should be someone on this forum who can refresh our memories on the stock port configuration of the 4350 and 4355.

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by Giskard
[iThere should be someone on this forum who can refresh our memories on the stock port configuration of the 4350 and 4355.

There are 6 ports on a 4350 each of them with a diameter of 3' and length of 12,2'.

Will this help?

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I just got this via email from Westlake

The crossover points are as follows:

2235H 1db up at 40hz
Gauss 3184 1.9db up at xover point 520hz
2446 10db down at xover point 1240hz
2426 .8db down at xover point 10000hz

For those that asked.

Ken

[Robh3606]

Thanks Ken

I went up on their web site and I was wondering how they get 10K to 20K out of a 2426??? Must use some kind of compensation unless its all in the horn which seams unlikely to me.

You lucky dog they are gonna be something once you get them mounted and dialed in. They have a high bench mark to surpass so don't be disappointed you haven't given them a chance yet.


Rob

[4313B]

Well the spec sheet states the 4345 is tuned to 32 Hz but the JBL tuning formula puts it at 30 Hz. G.T. thinks he remembers it being in the high twenties but he's trying to remember back 20 years.

From PSS AUDIO's post, the six 4350 ports would tune that volume to roughly 26 Hz, and the spec sheet states 25 Hz.

Given the dimensions of the Westlake ports, I get roughly 22 Hz for a 9 cubic foot volume and roughly 19 Hz for a 12 cubic foot volume. I think it's safe to bet they're tuned to ~ 20 Hz

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Originally posted by Giskard
Well the spec sheet states the 4345 is tuned to 32 Hz but the JBL tuning formula puts it at 30 Hz. G.T. thinks he remembers it being in the high twenties but he's trying to remember back 20 years.

From PSS AUDIO's post, the six 4350 ports would tune that volume to roughly 26 Hz, and the spec sheet states 25 Hz.

Given the dimensions of the Westlake ports, I get roughly 22 Hz for a 9 cubic foot volume and roughly 19 Hz for a 12 cubic foot volume. I think it's safe to bet they're tuned to ~ 20 Hz

Thanks Giskard

Appreciate the info. They say I should have a envelope full of technical info in the mail tomorrow.

Ken

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ken,

This is my hypothesis:

Remember the 2245s are tuned empirically too taste b/n 28- 30 hz. Andby luck or good fortune they sound great for hi fi in most rooms.

The possibility of the 2235's in the Westlake system being tuned lower than you might expect is understandable for a studio application.

It avoids unloading the cones with a bum of a Mic or similar low frequency mishap, and they can easily arrange low frequency equalisation as is standard practise in the studio to achieve the desire flat response at the listener position behind the Desk..

Tuning low without boost will result in a somewhat over damped sound, with less apparent oomph as the port output has less impact on reinforcing the cones at more audible bass frequencies.
But when Eq'd, the effect will be massive extension and very high power handling and sub frequencies.

See how you go with the adjustments on the crossover.


Ian