Help wanted identifying speakers!

[Sentient]

Hi guys! I found a local ad with these speakers, but the seller doesn't know what brand/model they are and is too afraid to open them up. They look like Altecs to me... can anyone please recognize them?

[hsosdrum]

It looks home-brew that was inspired by the Altec 9849. (http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...-8d/page01.jpg.) The horn looks like the Altec 32A, but I can't I.D. the woofer just from the cone. The enclosure looks to be quite a bit larger than the 9849.

[speakerdave]

Woofer looks like it may be a JBL 130A or 2220.

[Horn Fanatic]

Hi guys! I found a local ad with these speakers, but the seller doesn't know what brand/model they are and is too afraid to open them up. They look like Altecs to me... can anyone please recognize them?

Since when do you find paper segmented gaskets on top of the line JBL woofers? And when do you find JBL cones with drips on them? That was something ALTEC was known for when Duco cement was used on the surrounds. The cones do look like JBL, but the gaskets? They could have been re-coned by a rank amateur.

The only ALTEC basket that resembled a JBL was the 411, which was designed by Bart Locanthi. Former JBL engineer. Go figure. To the best of my knowledge, there was only one cone available for the 411, which was ribbed with a foam surround. No other ALTEC cone could have been installed in that basket for two reasons. Basket depth and voice coil diameter. Even though Eminence manufactures a few woofer models with four inch voice coils, the baskets are too deep for a JBL type cone.

Also, 130A baskets were light grey. 2220 baskets were dark grey. The baskets in the photo appear to be black, which could indicate an K/E 130 or K/E 140 type basket.

If the seller is local, perhaps you could mosey over to his house and pull the woofers. If he want's to sell them it would be in his best interest to open the cabinets up. Then you could confirm the make and model of the compression driver. There could be an Eminence or some other cheap driver on the other end of that horn.

Cavate emptor

H.F.

[speakerdave]

Since when do you find paper segmented gaskets on top of the line JBL woofers? And when do you find JBL cones with drips on them? That was something ALTEC was known for when Duco cement was used on the surrounds. The cones do look like JBL, but the gaskets? They could have been re-coned by a rank amateur.

The only ALTEC basket that resembled a JBL was the 411, which was designed by Bart Locanthi. Former JBL engineer. Go figure. To the best of my knowledge, there was only one cone available for the 411, which was ribbed with a foam surround. No other ALTEC cone could have been installed in that basket for two reasons. Basket depth and voice coil diameter. Even though Eminence manufactures a few woofer models with four inch voice coils, the baskets are too deep for a JBL type cone.

Also, 130A baskets were light grey. 2220 baskets were dark grey. The baskets in the photo appear to be black, which could indicate an K/E 130 or K/E 140 type basket.

If the seller is local, perhaps you could mosey over to his house and pull the woofers. If he want's to sell them it would be in his best interest to open the cabinets up. Then you could confirm the make and model of the compression driver. There could be an Eminence or some other cheap driver on the other end of that horn.

Cavate emptor

H.F.

Are you having a bad day?

So I guess the JBL K/E 130 or 140 can have Altec gaskets and surround sealer runs?

Are you so sure the 411 frames are black, as you imply? I believe they are dark gray. What Altec woofers do have black frames?

Are you so sure the frames in the photos are black?

In short it appears your supposedly informed guesses do not back up your rudely dismissive tone.

[Horn Fanatic]

Are you having a bad day?

So I guess the JBL K/E 130 or 140 can have Altec gaskets and surround sealer runs?

Are you so sure the 411 frames are black, as you imply? I believe they are dark gray. What Altec woofers do have black frames?

Are you so sure the frames in the photos are black? I cannot determine what exact color the frames are from the years of accumulated dust.

In short it appears your supposedly informed guesses do not back up your rudely dismissive tone.

1) No I am not having a bad day. My questions were rhetorical, not "rudely dismissive".

2 ) I have never seen surround dope drip on a factory JBL, except occasionally on the D208 / D216. Nor have I ever seen paper gaskets on top of the line ALTEC or JBL speakers.

3) I never claimed nor implied the 411 had a black frame. Perhaps you should read my comment again.

4 ) I wrote, the frames in the photo > appear < to be black. I cannot confirm one way other exactly what color the frames in the photo are through the years of accumulated dust.

5 ) My "informed guesses" are backed up by 48 years in the audio business as a manufacturer, musician, FOH sound, including as a former ALTEC Lansing employee. Not a 'Dang Amateur'.

As for my "rudely dismissive tone". I see I have once again insulted the delicate sensibilities of another forum member. Perhaps there is a safe zone for you to skeeter off to. It appears it just doesn't pay to ask questions on this forum.

I have been following this forum for 16 years, but during the last 4 or so I have notice a hand full of regulars who endlessly post comments everyday that obviously fancy themselves the forum courtesy police. May I suggest, if you find my comments so offensive, use the ignore option? How is that for a "rudely dismissive tone" ?

[Dahlgreen]

Gentlemen, before you start WW3- Sentient's question is easy to answer:
The cabinets are "Kinoton Cinema 200" ( from the german filmtechnic factory Kinoton ),
the LFs are RCF 15/200 drivers, HFs are RCF 1' with RCF Horn, or Beyma-CP 200 drivers.
Passiv X-over at 1.200 kHz, and of course, "home-brewed".
Kinoton was in charge with JBL to build the JBL 4508-cabs with license only for cinema-applications.
That was in the 80s. These speakers sounds pretty good in living rooms up to 30 qm.
best wishes

[speakerdave]

Gentlemen, before you start WW3- Sentient's question is easy to answer:
The cabinets are "Kinoton Cinema 200" ( from the german filmtechnic factory Kinoton ),
the LFs are RCF 15/200 drivers, HFs are RCF 1' with RCF Horn, or Beyma-CP 200 drivers.
Passiv X-over at 1.200 kHz, and of course, "home-brewed".
Kinoton was in charge with JBL to build the JBL 4508-cabs with license only for cinema-applications.
That was in the 80s. These speakers sounds pretty good in living rooms up to 30 qm.
best wishes

oh

[audiomagnate]

Gentlemen, before you start WW3- Sentient's question is easy to answer:
The cabinets are "Kinoton Cinema 200" ( from the german filmtechnic factory Kinoton ),
the LFs are RCF 15/200 drivers, HFs are RCF 1' with RCF Horn, or Beyma-CP 200 drivers.
Passiv X-over at 1.200 kHz, and of course, "home-brewed".
Kinoton was in charge with JBL to build the JBL 4508-cabs with license only for cinema-applications.
That was in the 80s. These speakers sounds pretty good in living rooms up to 30 qm.
best wishes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJ8tKRlW3E

[Sentient]

Gentlemen, before you start WW3- Sentient's question is easy to answer:
The cabinets are "Kinoton Cinema 200" ( from the german filmtechnic factory Kinoton ),
the LFs are RCF 15/200 drivers, HFs are RCF 1' with RCF Horn, or Beyma-CP 200 drivers.
Passiv X-over at 1.200 kHz, and of course, "home-brewed".
Kinoton was in charge with JBL to build the JBL 4508-cabs with license only for cinema-applications.
That was in the 80s. These speakers sounds pretty good in living rooms up to 30 qm.
best wishes

Well.... I'm sorry I almost started WW3 But this site is indeed full of knowledgeable people, I went to see the speakers today and found them a bit too bass-light and very shrill. I'm guessing they were indeed meant to be placed behind acoustic screens.

The bass drivers are RCF L15-554K, made in Italy, and the compression driver is RCF N580.

I don't know if they are the original drivers of if they've been changed.

I couldn't identify the horn. They're very large speakers. On the crossover it is indeed written "Cinema 200"

Will post more pictures soon.

[Earl K]

Lots of good historical info here, so many thanks for starting the thread!

KINOTON ( I never knew! )

The horn in question is the RCF H3709 ( seen on the right-hand side in the following picture ).



FWIW to you, this horn ( & it's many variants in the 80's & 90's ) have pretty deep roots going all the way back Western Electric days ( of the late 40's/early50's) .
- It's actually more conical ( than exponential ) with a quick entry bell ( which helps HF horizontal dispersion / contributing to a sense of "openess" ).

See;

+++


Some interesting blog comments ( on the 3 horns pictured in my first photo ) are found here!

The enclosure ( you looked at ) looks to have been inspired by the Altec A8 (btw).

The RCF L15-554K is a very decent (midrange oriented) speaker ( like the JBL 2220 ). It was used extensively in by EAW ib the KF850.


The RCF L15P200AK ( previously mentioned in an earlier post ) would seem to be a very good standin for the JBL 2234 ( purely from it's specs ). The Beyma_SM-115/K_pdf also seems like a reasonable standin ( for the 2234 type speaker ).

Dependent on price ( of course ), those speakers could be worthwhile fixer-uppers.

Box size would likely better accomodate a GPA 416-8B ( which I'm sure might be pretty dear/expensive to import to Romania ).
- Retuned & with the horn circuit reEQed, it would be quite listenable.



PS; Here's a good compendium of info ( in Italian ) of the L15P200. Click the pic;

[Dahlgreen]

Sentient, your speakers are the latest version from the Kinoton "product-line", it was never intended these speakers to sell on a wide marketplace.
There are several versions with different drivers ( Beyma, EV xxx, Altec, JBL ), depends from customers wishes. I will say, it was cost-effective:
JBL send the driver to europe, the assambly including the enclosures where made by Kinoton ( or, for the HiFis, in Denmark, the JAMO-factor ).
Your's is named Cinema 210 since early 1990s. You wrote, they sound a bit shrill: the next larger model was fitted with a rotary-switched volume for
the HFs. Normally, these loudspeakers where part from Dolby systems in movie theatres and "EQed" with the "house equaliser", a 27 band terz-EQ.

Thank you Earl K for your information and pictures.

[mech986]

So to me they did look like Altec A8 variants out of the 60's, but not from Altec.

So what era does the Kinoton hail from? If Dolby types and RCF drivers, then the late 80's or early 90's?

[derik736]

I know this is an old thread but I would like to ask if anyone uses these Kinoton speakers here except me?
I have 5 of them in my home theater, three on front LCR channels and two will be used as surround channels after I modify the enclosures a little bit. At the moment my surrounds are jbl 8330. I always wanted 5 exactly same speakers in my HT setup, I think nothing sounds better.
First of all I have to tell you that speakers sound amazing. I bought them cheap, at least in my opinion, it was a complete blind date but I thought what the heck... For that price I just have to try. I actually wanted to buy the jbl 3677, 3678 or maybe 4722 but they were at least twice expensive than the kinoton speakers .
Anyway, after I moved my diy altec vott a5 I hooked them up, which by the way cost me a lot of sweat, tears and blood.
What hit me immediately was the unexpexted level of musicality which I actually didn't expect from these italian Drivers. Apparently the phenolic diaphragmas souns different from my previous aluminum drivers like altec or onkyo scepter.
I was also moped by the balanced and coherent sound of the Kinoton speakers. I realized how far away was my diy Vott from perfection. And these old cinema speakers sound just right out of the box.
The midrange is as already told, very musical, balanced and transparent. I also wasn't expext that they play so low, I didn't measure them but I'm guessing 30 maybe 35hz are not a problem. Bass is clean, fast and very well defined. These 15" speakers are moderately hard suspended, I mean they are actually a bit softer suspended, kinda like altec 416 but rcf doesn't play as low as 416 in vott enclosure.
The other thing I like about them is the sensitivity, they are very fine with my italian Tektron 2a3 set monoblocks, I assume they are about 98db.
Build quality... Well, they are not the prettiest speakers on the planet but very massive and actually quite big, very similar to Klipsch Cornwall. Size is 100x75x38cm. They also weight a lot, forget you gonna lift them on your own.
Crossovery are nothing special, two caps, two resistors and two coils. 1200hz crossovers, I guess here's a plenty room for improvement.
All in all I'm very glad I bought them, they confirmed what many guys on avsforum write about outstanding quality of cinema speakers. Other fact I like, they seem to be very rare and almost vintage. I mean good old german engineering from 80s is quite good even these days.
I would be very happy if other users would shere their experiences with these wonderful speakers

[Earl K]

Thank-you very much for your testimonial Derik (?) .

(Users) observations and comparisons are always worthwhile .

Pics are always welcome.

Are your woofers the L15/554 ( or the L15P-200 ) variant ?