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Thread: Why is 4 Way design dead?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    What new 15'' woofers do you play?you think 10" 2251j/251j midrange mid bass woofers are better than 2123H in the 300 - 1200Hz range?why?


    I have play with 1500Al, 1500Al-1, 1501Al-1, 1501Al-2, 1500Fe, 1501Fe, 2216Nd woofers so I think at I know pretty well how they work
    I did not say at 2251j/251j were better than 2123H, I have not play with 2123H yet, I own two 2123H baskets and C8R2122H recone kits that would be interested to try




    Ari

  2. #62
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlaari View Post
    I have play with 1500Al, 1500Al-1, 1501Al-1, 1501Al-2, 1500Fe, 1501Fe, 2216Nd woofers so I think at I know pretty well how they work
    I did not say at 2251j/251j were better than 2123H, I have not play with 2123H yet, I own two 2123H baskets and C8R2122H recone kits that would be interested to try




    Ari
    Great!which one do you think is the best JBL mid range cone?
    46 lover

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    Great!but why not try 2216Nd that used in 4367 and M2?which one do you think is the best JBL mid range cone?

    because I am sure 2216Nd-1 are not going to beat the 10" midrange woofers in the 300 - 1200Hz range
    I am not 100% sure which of the 10" JBL midrange cone woofers is the best, but I have try both 2251J and 251J that are great midrange woofers
    the only difference between 2251j and 251j is I can cross 251j lower so that allow me to use W1500H in my 4-way system

    all the new 15" woofers are great, and I would use each and everyone with 2251j crossed between them around 300Hz
    the goal to use W1500H is the can reach down to 20Hz easily



    Ari

  4. #64
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    Iīm actually really happy how this thread has turned out!!

    Keep this great discussion going

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    BTW, you guys have mentioned the 10" midconeīs sounding better in the 300-1200hz range than the modern 15" woofers.
    I believe we should rather compare them in the range of 300-800hz, as all the 15" woofers are crossed over around 800hz... None of them has to operate up to 1200hz...

    But then there is a different aspect we should take into consideration:
    How does a 10" midcone compare to a modern compressiondriver in the 800-1200hz range?
    Most people mention the muddiness of a heavy 15" woofer playing in the midrange, but maybe the biggest advantage of a 10"midcone is to relieve the compression-driver from operating down to 800hz. Crossing them at 1200hz should reduce diaphragm movement by about half and reduce distortion significantly.

  6. #66
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    Augmented 12" two-way: GT's diy.
    And, come to think of it, Widget's Grand Master Ones, which may have been precedent.

    GT's diy: 1500AL sub, 1200fe, horn plus supertweeter.
    Widget's GMO's: sub1500, TAD 1102, horn plus supertweeter

    The point being a long midrange.

    My take on all this is that the JBL big 4-way monitor has been done. Great as it was, and still is, GT strongly advised us against the 10" at 300-1200 during the Project May affair. "That won't work," he said.

    It's a retrograde step, unless, as Ari suggests, your ten can cross lower.

    The hyper-engineered 14-15 from 30 to mid-high hundreds, from the 2235 and the TADs to the 2216 are terrific, but as the above two systems and Widget's link all show, there may be a next step.

    The complicating factor is the specialist driver that can go sealed from <100 to >800 (1200fe?) is AWOL; the ones I'm aware of need a port or dedicated equalizing electronics.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  7. #67
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    There are several take outs at this point from this discussion;

    1. Is the 4 way dead in the context of JBL? - original post
    2. Is a 4 way system featuring a specialised 10 inch mid or mid bass driver superior to JBLs current 15 inch soa designs?
    3. Does classic a JBL 2 way require augmented low and high frequencies to improve the performance?

    1. Time will tell.

    To answer no 2 there are numerous technical and practical reasons for arguing either configuration. Certainly for a manufacturer the options to implement either configuration for market acceptance are limited. If those limitations are removed and the user adopts the designers recommendations then either will deliver an acceptable performance. The issue then is controlling how those recommendations will be implemented.

    Another key issue is the influence of the users listening environment and listening habits. This is largely un controlled and is perhaps the most influential variable in satisfying the expectations of the user.

    Ultimately listening tastes do vary. There are a number of factors influencing taste and even the ultimate solution will not satisfy all.

    The diy user has the freedom to try and adopt a configuration that works for his listening environment, listening habits and taste.

    3 is tied to the users expectations, the end use and physical real estate.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    And, come to think of it, Widget's Grand Master Ones, which may have been precedent.

    GT's diy: 1500AL sub, 1200fe, horn plus supertweeter.
    Widget's GMO's: sub1500, TAD 1102, horn plus supertweeter

    The point being a long midrange.

    My take on all this is that the JBL big 4-way monitor has been done. Great as it was, and still is, GT strongly advised us against the 10" at 300-1200 during the Project May affair. "That won't work," he said.

    It's a retrograde step, unless, as Ari suggests, your ten can cross lower.

    The hyper-engineered 14-15 from 30 to mid-high hundreds, from the 2235 and the TADs to the 2216 are terrific, but as the above two systems and Widget's link all show, there may be a next step.

    The complicating factor is the specialist driver that can go sealed from <100 to >800 (1200fe?) is AWOL; the ones I'm aware of need a port or dedicated equalizing electronics.

    I can cross my dual 251j at 70Hz over the W1500H
    I would not recommend to cross 2251j and 2123H that low, I donīt know why GT strongly advised not to use the 10" in the range of 300 - 1200Hz?




    Ari

  9. #69
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlaari View Post
    . . . . I donīt know why GT strongly advised not to use the 10" in the range of 300 - 1200Hz? . . . .
    He didn't explain (in my hearing), but I believe the answer would be in the literature around the introduction of the 4430 and 4435 monitors. For the Project May we had been given four woofers and the horn from the S9800. To put a ten between them would have undone the design work that went into making those two components work together as regards power dispersion into the room. The S9500, M9500, S9800 and all subsequent JBL statement speakers keep to the thinking behind the 4430; that is, equal power over frequency into the room, not just on-axis flat response.

    As far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to can disagree with that approach and prefer the JBL large format four-way, the coaxial UREI monitor, a column of direct drive domes, or some other idea. But in the context of a JBL sponsored project I believe GT did not want to see us take a retrograde step per se, and also, in my opinion, did not want us to be undermining then current JBL statement product.

    Now that i think about it, I wonder why we were given four woofers. The DD66000 had not been released at that time, but surely was in development. I wonder if he was having fun with us, giving us the makings for and thus the chance to come up with a similar idea. We had the components and the 4435 to recognize as a model. I think the answer is we weren't smart enough. But that is strictly speculation.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    He didn't explain (in my hearing), but I believe the answer would be in the literature around the introduction of the 4430 and 4435 monitors. For the Project May we had been given four woofers and the horn from the S9800. To put a ten between them would have undone the design work that went into making those two components work together as regards power dispersion into the room. The S9500, M9500, S9800 and all subsequent JBL statement speakers keep to the thinking behind the 4430; that is, equal power over frequency into the room, not just on-axis flat response.

    As far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to can disagree with that approach and prefer the JBL large format four-way or the coaxial UREI monitor, a column of direct drive domes, or some other idea. But in the context of a JBL sponsored project I believe GT did not want to see us take a retrograde step per se, and also, in my opinion, did not want us to be undermining then current JBL statement product.

    Now that i think about it, I wonder why we were given four woofers. The DD66000 had not been released at that time, but surely was in development. I wonder if he was having fun with us, giving us the makings for and thus the chance to come up with a similar idea. We had the components and the 4435 to recognize as a model. I think the answer is we weren't smart enough. But that is strictly speculation.
    I think at there have bin and are couple of smart guys on this forum

    about the Everest later models, I donīt think at they were as good as the driver components that were used in them were
    there have bin and are lot of them on the second hand market for only 1/3 of the retail price, that tells me a lot

    I think at the 10" 251j is very underrated woofer, GT him self did design this woofer and it was only used in the SK2-1000 and SK2-3300




    Ari

  11. #71
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of potentially interesting and exciting developments now abandoned at jBL under the present regime of axing away R and D, down selling brand names, accessing the cheapest labor, maximizing pay for upper echelons and generally screwing the pooch in the name of stockholder equity.

    (On a similar note, Apple has announced moving Mac Pro production from Texas to China because of, their words, the "shortage of qualified labor at minimum wage. [my italics])
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  12. #72
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Speakerdave

    Now that i think about it, I wonder why we were given four woofers. The DD66000 had not been released at that time, but surely was in development.
    Don wanted an MTM design for Project May.

    To put a ten between them would have undone the design work that went into making those two components work together as regards power dispersion into the room. The S9500, M9500, S9800 and all subsequent JBL statement speakers keep to the thinking behind the 4430; that is, equal power over frequency into the room, not just on-axis flat response.
    They moved away for the 10 going all the way back to the original Everest. But I believe that had more to do with matching the 10"s polar response to the asymmetrical pattern from the horn. To difficult to properly integrate.

    I have E-145's crossed over to 2123's at 300 Hz then 435Be's at 1500Hz. The E-145/2123 combo is damn impressive as far as snap and speed. It is down right visceral and quick as hell!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  13. #73
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    . . . . Don wanted an MTM design for Project May . . . .
    Oh, yes. I remember now listening to those towering MTM's. The consensus was we didn't like it; as I remember it had a big hunk in the upper bass. After we reported back to the forum people began kicking around ideas; that's when the suggestion of the 10" came up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    . . . . I have E-145's crossed over to 2123's at 300 Hz then 435Be's at 1500Hz. The E-145/2123 combo is damn impressive as far as snap and speed. It is down right visceral and quick as hell! . . . .
    I still have a Drew Daniels fish to fry myself and will be using a 2220 and a 2123. The e145 (along with the 2227) is one of those drivers I should have looked at when they were available. At 55 grams moving mass, it is lighter than the 2220, underhangs the gap, and probably a better cone. I bet it is really terrific.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  14. #74
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlaari View Post
    because I am sure 2216Nd-1 are not going to beat the 10" midrange woofers in the 300 - 1200Hz range
    I am not 100% sure which of the 10" JBL midrange cone woofers is the best, but I have try both 2251J and 251J that are great midrange woofers
    the only difference between 2251j and 251j is I can cross 251j lower so that allow me to use W1500H in my 4-way system

    all the new 15" woofers are great, and I would use each and everyone with 2251j crossed between them around 300Hz
    the goal to use W1500H is the can reach down to 20Hz easily



    Ari
    But you have told me that 2267 is the best 15'' woofer and 2269 is the best 18'' woofer?
    46 lover

  15. #75
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post

    Now that i think about it, I wonder why we were given four woofers. The DD66000 had not been released at that time, but surely was in development. I wonder if he was having fun with us, giving us the makings for and thus the chance to come up with a similar idea. We had the components and the 4435 to recognize as a model. I think the answer is we weren't smart enough. But that is strictly speculation.
    That was 15 years ago and the rest is history. Most of us have gotten old..LOL

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