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Thread: Why is 4 Way design dead?

  1. #76
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.db View Post
    But then there is a different aspect we should take into consideration:
    How does a 10" midcone compare to a modern compressiondriver in the 800-1200hz range?
    Most people mention the muddiness of a heavy 15" woofer playing in the midrange, but maybe the biggest advantage of a 10"midcone is to relieve the compression-driver from operating down to 800hz. Crossing them at 1200hz should reduce diaphragm movement by about half and reduce distortion significantly.
    Yes,that's the point!by introducing 10'' midcone,the 15'' woofer do not need to work up to 800Hz and the compression driver do not need to work down to 800Hz too
    46 lover

  2. #77
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post

    My take on all this is that the JBL big 4-way monitor has been done. Great as it was, and still is, GT strongly advised us against the 10" at 300-1200 during the Project May affair. "That won't work," he said.
    Really?why?GT prefered 12'' woofer ,not 10'' midrange cone?
    46 lover

  3. #78
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    Really?why?GT prefered 12'' woofer ,not 10'' midrange cone?
    The 1200fe is not a midcone; it's a woofer; using it enables a lower low entry frequency. I'm guessing the point of his diy experiment was to hear what that would sound like; that would be mine.

    As for GT's comment regarding a 10" in the Project May build, two explanations have been offered already in this thread, one by me, one by Rob.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  4. #79
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Martin,

    I don't see the necessity to consider exotic driver (which are now NLA anyway)

    Consider this relatively cost effective arrangement which would go some way to mitigating the concerns:

    Simple two way crossover at 500-600 hertz
    Woofer - JBL 2234 or 150C fast hi sensitivity under hung driver
    Horn - 3732. https://reconingspeakers.com/product...aveguide-3732/

    Augmented bass from diy sub 2245/ 2269, W1500
    Augmented HF from 2405, 2202

    This is an excellent horn but above all is diy friendly.

    I have chosen this configuration because with a long vertical array of drivers it can be difficult to obtain a coherent listening window.

  5. #80
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    And, come to think of it, Widget's Grand Master Ones, which may have been precedent.

    GT's diy: 1500AL sub, 1200fe, horn plus supertweeter.
    Widget's GMO's: sub1500, TAD 1102, horn plus supertweeter

    The point being a long midrange.

    My take on all this is that the JBL big 4-way monitor has been done. Great as it was, and still is, GT strongly advised us against the 10" at 300-1200 during the Project May affair. "That won't work," he said.

    It's a retrograde step, unless, as Ari suggests, your ten can cross lower.

    The hyper-engineered 14-15 from 30 to mid-high hundreds, from the 2235 and the TADs to the 2216 are terrific, but as the above two systems and Widget's link all show, there may be a next step.

    The complicating factor is the specialist driver that can go sealed from <100 to >800 (1200fe?) is AWOL; the ones I'm aware of need a port or dedicated equalizing electronics.
    What are GT's diy and Widget's GMO's crossover points?
    46 lover

  6. #81
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Zeppeli View Post
    I would also suggest that driver advancement has made four-ways redundant. Newer drivers are more capable of faithfully reproducing a broader frequency spectrum.
    I agree. However the manner in which those soa drivers to sing together in JBLs systems calls for some ownership on the part of user as to how they set up and listen to these systems.

    I can personally draw on examples where I have auditioned these systems set up in inappropriate environments by the user(s) and listened to in contempt of the recommendations in the owner manuals. The user(s) end up blaming the design and the designer for getting it wrong and then attempts to re-configure the system in some way to improve the result. Whats's concerning is they think they are right. No joke. I won't repeat Greg's comments. We just let them continue to screw up the result so there are no arguments.

    So when anyone says something contrary to the way Greg designed a system I take it with a grain of salt because they are "wrong" in one way or another.

    If you are starting a diy-project do what ever pleases you.

  7. #82
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    What are GT's diy and Widget's GMO's crossover points?
    As is often the case with diy they were experimentally adjusted. The best information I have is:

    GT: 80, 750 or 800, and 10k

    W's. GMO's: 60, 650 to 950, 10-12k.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  8. #83
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    As is often the case with diy they were experimentally adjusted. The best information I have is:

    GT: 80, 750 or 800, and 10k

    W's. GMO's: 60, 650 to 950, 10-12k.
    Not 100% sure yet, but once I have power on them again and begin dialing them in,
    W's will likely be 66Hz or 75Hz, 750Hz, 12KHz.


    Widget

  9. #84
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    He didn't explain (in my hearing), but I believe the answer would be in the literature around the introduction of the 4430 and 4435 monitors. For the Project May we had been given four woofers and the horn from the S9800. To put a ten between them would have undone the design work that went into making those two components work together as regards power dispersion into the room. The S9500, M9500, S9800 and all subsequent JBL statement speakers keep to the thinking behind the 4430; that is, equal power over frequency into the room, not just on-axis flat response.

    As far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to can disagree with that approach and prefer the JBL large format four-way, the coaxial UREI monitor, a column of direct drive domes, or some other idea. But in the context of a JBL sponsored project I believe GT did not want to see us take a retrograde step per se, and also, in my opinion, did not want us to be undermining then current JBL statement product.

    Now that i think about it, I wonder why we were given four woofers. The DD66000 had not been released at that time, but surely was in development. I wonder if he was having fun with us, giving us the makings for and thus the chance to come up with a similar idea. We had the components and the 4435 to recognize as a model. I think the answer is we weren't smart enough. But that is strictly speculation.
    But 4344/4345/4350 are more favorable and much more expensive than 4435/4430 in the second hand markettime and market gave the answer
    How to explain the design of 4348?who design it?is it a totally failure JBL product?
    46 lover

  10. #85
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlaari View Post
    I think at there have bin and are couple of smart guys on this forum

    about the Everest later models, I donīt think at they were as good as the driver components that were used in them were
    there have bin and are lot of them on the second hand market for only 1/3 of the retail price, that tells me a lot

    I think at the 10" 251j is very underrated woofer, GT him self did design this woofer and it was only used in the SK2-1000 and SK2-3300




    Ari
    Yes,even S9500/9800/9900 are not so sought after like 4344/4345/4350 by audiophiles all over the world
    46 lover

  11. #86
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Speakerdave



    Don wanted an MTM design for Project May.



    They moved away for the 10 going all the way back to the original Everest. But I believe that had more to do with matching the 10"s polar response to the asymmetrical pattern from the horn. To difficult to properly integrate.

    I have E-145's crossed over to 2123's at 300 Hz then 435Be's at 1500Hz. The E-145/2123 combo is damn impressive as far as snap and speed. It is down right visceral and quick as hell!

    Rob
    Great,have you ever tried any other 15'' wooofer and 10'' midrange cone combo?E145/2118 is combo in 4628B
    46 lover

  12. #87
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Great,have you ever tried any other 15'' wooofer and 10'' midrange cone combo?
    Hello Martin

    Yes 2235/2122 2035/2122/2123 The E-145 is my favorite.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  13. #88
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    The 1200fe is not a midcone; it's a woofer; using it enables a lower low entry frequency. I'm guessing the point of his diy experiment was to hear what that would sound like; that would be mine.

    As for GT's comment regarding a 10" in the Project May build, two explanations have been offered already in this thread, one by me, one by Rob.
    I know 1200fe is a woofer,mabye 12'' woofer with horn is a better combo than 10'' midcone with horn combo
    46 lover

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin_wu99 View Post
    But you have told me that 2267 is the best 15'' woofer and 2269 is the best 18'' woofer?

    2267 are sure a great woofer, 2269 is the first JBL 18" woofer I am interested in since 2245
    if had use single 2251j in my project I have go for 2267 and cross between them at 300Hz





    Ari

  15. #90
    Senior Member martin_wu99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlaari View Post
    2267 are sure a great woofer, 2269 is the first JBL 18" woofer I am interested in since 2245
    if had use single 2251j in my project I have go for 2267 and cross between them at 300Hz





    Ari
    You think 2267 with 2251j is a good combo?
    46 lover

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