Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am NOT arguing with you, only pointing out that your response is not to the question the OP posed which is all over the map and in my opinion yet another example of troll bait

I also believe that there most certainly are "legit" sonic reasons that people pay what they pay for some of the classic models, never mind how they compare to contemporary designs in a lab

"Legit" does not mean that they have to meet or exceed the objective measurements of today's models, that's my point

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that is why I jumped on your definitive answer of "no"

Joe

Are their any legit sonic reasons why 70s JBLs and paragons gone through the roof?

Jbls may have surpassed tannoy prices..dont get the hype. Is it the big drivers or the sound. jbl does go big and heavy in their older stuff but just dont understand the insane prices these days. It better sound out of this planet for 10, 15 or 50grand . Bottom line for me. The pricetag paid better translate into incredible sound not just beefy build.

I don't think the question in the original post was framed correctly.

After numerous posts you decided to analyse the question.

I am not sure why you did not do that in the first place when it's obviously just a conversation starter.

The legitimacy is are they infact original with original parts and part numbers.

The 67000 is going to superior numbers to any of this old stuff but because the early stuff was uncompromised in design unlike a book shelf loudspeaker they are deemed to sound amazing if you can find one to listen to.

Why do you think the JBL statement system white papers refer back to these early systems?

I think you forgot to include a quantitative analysis comparing the number of JBL versus Tannoy in this category on eBay for example.

My own perception is that is not JBL or Tannoy but the very early Altec components that are fetching considerable returns.

Why? Because they are rare, there is a lot written about them by historians like Steve Schell and when restored by folks like OMA they are held in high esteem by the high end fratenitfy.

[JeffW]

Of course not. But it was a good mention. Have you seen that commercial? It was a crackup. Might be on youtube.

Yes, it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2TzUt0zwao

Regards, D_E

Ah, no I hadn't seen the commercial, the punch line whooshed right over my head. Thanks for the link!

[hsosdrum]

The 67000 is going to superior numbers to any of this old stuff but because the early stuff was uncompromised in design unlike a book shelf loudspeaker they are deemed to sound amazing if you can find one to listen to. Why do you think the JBL statement system white papers refer back to these early systems?

As the person who wrote the "statement system white paper" (the Product Commentaries and User Guide book) for what is currently JBL's most prestigious statement systems—the Project Everest DD65000 and DD67000, I think I can shed a bit of light on this.

Ian's comment quoted above is exactly correct. JBL's statement systems going all the way back to the Hartsfield represent a continuum of striving to create the best-performing speakers possible within the current state of the art, with almost no regard for common size and cost restraints. As time has passed and advances have been made in materials, in measurement and evaluation techniques, and in our knowledge of psychoacoustics, the performance of JBL's statement systems has advanced along with them. What makes them all statement systems, however, is not just their performance, it is that their performance has been the very best that was achievable by JBL at the time they were designed.

(Personally, I think the Paragon should be held to a somewhat different standard, since it is a stereo speaker system that was designed to fit into a living space that was typical for the mid-1950s, which imposed a rather substantial size constraint on the system. As such, it used reflections in an attempt to create a stereo soundstage larger than would be possible with non-reflecting speakers spaced the same distance apart. It was also a totally horn-loaded system, and as such, was unable to provide the kind of bass extension that was achievable at the time by bass-reflex systems. To do so would have required a pair of bass horns much too large to fit into any contemporary living space.)

Getting back to the OP's original question, if, after reading all of the well-written answers offered here explaining that an item's intrinsic value may be only marginally related to how well it performs its originally-intended function he still doesn't understand how early JBLs can be worth big money, he's beyond learning the concept. (Personally, I think he's just another troll.)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Outstanding insights.

If Steve and Don are around it would be great to read their insights too.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

(Personally, I think he's just another troll.)

Thank you
Sincere regards,
Joe

[audiomagnate]

i understand the build is top notch but in the end isnt it all about sound that counts? How does one justify paying 10gs for L300s to fom rotting drivers? 2 years ago giving them away for 2gs or less..thats insane increase.

I sold a pair of L300's three years ago for $4,500 btw, and the most recent "high" was $7,600 on eBay. I've never heard of a pair selling for $10,000.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-L-300-SU...p2047675.l2557

[vinny]

That's an over-simplification. Its a collectors item, and bit of audio history that represented the pinnacle of "high-end" home audio in its day. Its a lot of things besides a piece of furniture.

so based on the various responses the exhorbitant prices paid for the vintage jbls tannoys and altecs arent worth the prices paid today as the sound doesnt measure up to modern standards? Thats the vibe im getting from everyone at the moment.
Which altecs were being referred to that sell for big bucks? Not as much as jbls prices except maybe first altecs like the insanely priced and paid for a first generation altec dual concentric 604.

[grumpy]

Lol. Not worth it? In regard to state of the art sound no.
As a fun investment? Seemingly so.

Don't know about pricey Altecs, although anything with "voice of the theater"
on it seems to now bring bigger $$ than personally makes sense to me,
but see above. Some of the Laguna/Capistrano era Altec stuff looks nice to me
and is seemingly collectible, again with a vintage sound to go with.

[Ed Kreamer]

so based on the various responses the exhorbitant prices paid the vintage jbls arent worth it as the sound doesnt measure up to modern standards. Its the vibe im getting from everyone. Which altecs were being referred to that sell for big bucks? Not as much as jbls prices.

Not quite. You are, or maybe buying, a museum piece. For example: If I were to buy a Mercedes SSK for my every day driver it would make no sense. Yes it is a car and can get me from here to there, but not nearly as comfortable as a modern car. But as a collectible work of automotive art it might be worth it. Same as say the JBL L65. Sure it can go into my , mid century living room, but If I bought it to be used for critical listening to new recordings, I would be better served by the JBL LSR 6332. But as a piece of late mid century industrial art, it is very much worth it, and as long as I don't to something stupid to it, it will continue to increase in value as a collectible work example piece. If I did get LSR 6332's I'd better figure out how to wrap them in teak.

Altecs have never had the resale value as JBL's. Is it because they are inferior? or is it because collectors are willing to spend more for the L-300 than for the Altec 878.

Ed

[BMWCCA]

so based on the various responses the exhorbitant prices paid the vintage jbls arent worth it as the sound doesnt measure up to modern standards. Its the vibe im getting from everyone. Which altecs were being referred to that sell for big bucks? Not as much as jbls prices.

I suppose I should have chimed in earlier to perhaps change your opinion?

I have a pair of JBL 4345 clones using Kenrick cabinets and populated with new or refurbished-as-new drivers and charge-coupled crossovers. I will—and have—put these up against modern systems, and the vintage JBLs win every time. No need for subwoofers and a 200-watt amp is all that's needed to rattle the windows. I paid a fair price as asked in this group about eight years ago from a forum member. It was still far below the price good-furniture, wife-friendly JBLs go for but these also perform on a level quite a ways above your standard L300 or 4333. I truly think I'd expect to pay $30k, or more, for a new, modern speaker that could hope to compare with mine—and I have no reason to do it.

Maybe some day you'll be asking a similar question about DD67000 Everests when they hit the $10k mark. Ask me, because when they hit that level I won't be able to resist owning a pair just to make the comparison.

Essentially, I'd say the sonic reason is the performance, but the prices of the pro monitors aren't where the more home-friendly iconic models have hit, making them sonically competitive and economically viable.

Try them, you'll like them.

[grumpy]

May seem somewhat contradictory, but +1

When old studio monitors got to the 10K point and M2s came around
it disturbed the equation for me.

[vinny]

I don't think the question in the original post was framed correctly.

After numerous posts you decided to analyse the question.

I am not sure why you did not do that in the first place when it's obviously just a conversation starter.

The legitimacy is are they infact original with original parts and part numbers.

The 67000 is going to superior numbers to any of this old stuff but because the early stuff was uncompromised in design unlike a book shelf loudspeaker they are deemed to sound amazing if you can find one to listen to.

Why do you think the JBL statement system white papers refer back to these early systems?

I think you forgot to include a quantitative analysis comparing the number of JBL versus Tannoy in this category on eBay for example.
Yes that aspect hasnt been touched yet.
My own perception is that is not JBL or Tannoy but the very early Altec components that are fetching considerable returns.

Why? Because they are rare, there is a lot written about them by historians like Steve Schell and when restored by folks like OMA they are held in high esteem by the high end fratenitfy.

I believe the reason for the earliest altecs fetch high prices is due to the transition from western electric going out of business and altec taking over and some could been late wes repackaged as altecs. And the asians go crazy for We.

[vinny]

The sound is one important factor, but lots of other things add to the escalating prices these vintage speakers fetch. I'll touch on one.

In my own opinion, very much related to the sound is all the research and documentation that these speakers have (always?) had available. It's really easy to see that the sound was engineered - their design choices were not an accident or coincidence or convenience.

Growing up in the 1970s and 80s, my dad's speakers were Pioneer and Sansui from 1972 or so. While they looked really nice, like furniture even, I always thought they sounded pretty bad. After studying speaker building in the 90's and reading some texts by Martin Colloms, Vance Dickason, David Weems, Robert Bullock, et.al., I opened up my dads speakers to see what they were built from. They never had a chance.

I'm convinced that - at the time - electronics manufacturers built speakers just to round out their product offerings as complete systems.

As a audio enthusiast trying to achieve and listen to great sound is the reason why i like this hobby so much. Styling construction is all good but if it dont sound good to me then theres no point of paying big bucks for it even if its a heritage piece. If one is buying audio for nostalgic historical significance, rarity, and and or to have their equipment sitting on a shelf or floor just to look pretty and never to be used and not care how they sound then thats a different kind of hobby. With all those amazing drivers in the paragon olympus or hartsfield Everest they must sound pretty good for people paying 30-40gs in America Japan Canada and China for them. Have any of you had experience listening to them?

[vinny]

these days i dont think people are that stupid to pay crazy money for things that dont sound very good. If that were the case the price would drop quickly and resell value would be low. Marantz solid state 2200 series prime example. Prices have gone up and up more than original retail prices. Mac vintage solid state prices have dropped bit because people are realizing it doesnt sound so good and they are right they sound terrible. Old altec poweramps ss sounds much better but they are ugly looking but who cares if they sound great.

[JeffW]

these days i dont think people are that stupid to pay crazy money for things that dont sound very good.

And yet examples of people spending crazy money on other old items that are nowhere near SOTA have been given in this thread. People do it every day.