Led Zeppelin Appear in Court for Colorful Start of 'Stairway' Trial

[hsosdrum]

Not surprised by this one
Kind of stinks though that they did bang George Harrison, all those years ago

Except that "My Sweet Lord" doesn't share just half of a single musical motif with "He's So Fine", it's almost an exact copy of the entire song: Melody, rhythm and chords, both in the verses and the bridge. WAAAY too may similarities to excuse as coincidence, or as simply coming from similar musical influences. Also, "He's So Fine" was an international hit song that Harrison—who, like all the other members of the Beatles, was a big consumer of pop music in the early 60s—couldn't have avoided hearing. I'm not saying that I think Harrison intentionally stole the song, but I think he definitely did so unconsciously, without realizing it.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Read the synopsis of the ruling in George Harrison case
Page and Plant clearly had the better attorneys and the right jury
Don't know and will probably never be able to read all of the details, the complete transcript, of this Stairway to Heaven deal, but I have no idea why any attorney would want, or not fight vociferously against, his client's fate in a matter such as this to be decided by a jury?
Problem is though, in order to have a bench trial in lieu of a jury, both parties have to agree and I doubt Page and Plant would have gone for that
Too subjective and too many to persuade, could have been argued on case law alone thanks to the legal precedent set and penalties imposed when they totally screwed over Harrison, and he TRIED TO SETTLE very generously and share future royalties
Even though it flies in the face of conventional wisdom most of the time, in this specific instance, if it had been an option available to me as an attorney I would have requested a bench trial and I've not seen or heard any mention of a motion to that effect

The Spirit people gambled for the sake of expediency and it cost them the case if they did not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Sweet_Lord

[hsosdrum]

you are most likely correct, tho I remember an interview with Page who said "everybody borrowed from each other back in those days"

some of LZ's tunes were listed as "traditional" when they really weren't.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...0160622?page=3

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=322

and NONE of that alters how great as performers/musicians they were

Totally agree about the above: Page was not above taking credit for old blues songs he lifted, it's just that in the case of "Taurus"/"Stairway" he simply didn't do it.

Rock music is full of this sort of chicanery: Keith Emerson lifted an entire Janacek Soinfonietta and turned it into the song "Knife Edge" without providing any credit to the original composer; Vanilla Fudge freely borrowed themes from Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" for their version of "Some Velvet Morning", and Deep Purple turned "Bombay Calling" by It's a Beautiful Day into "Child In Time" (in turn allowing It's a Beautiful Day to borrow Purple's "Wring That Neck" for their own "Don and Dewey").

[hsosdrum]

Read the synopsis of the ruling in George Harrison case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Sweet_Lord

Thanks—your link 100% backs-up my assertions about "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine". To quote the judge in the Harrison trial:

"Did Harrison deliberately use the music of He's So Fine? I do not believe he did so deliberately. Nevertheless, it is clear that My Sweet Lord is the very same song as He's So Fine with different words, and Harrison had access to He's So Fine. This is, under the law, infringement of copyright, and is no less so even though subconsciously accomplished."

Case closed.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Thanks—your link 100% backs-up my assertions about "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine". To quote the judge in the Harrison trial:

"Did Harrison deliberately use the music of He's So Fine? I do not believe he did so deliberately. Nevertheless, it is clear that My Sweet Lord is the very same song as He's So Fine with different words, and Harrison had access to He's So Fine. This is, under the law, infringement of copyright, and is no less so even though subconsciously accomplished."

Case closed.

Exactly
But Harrison LOST the case
Page and Plant WON

There will be an appeal and hopefully the Spirit folks can find a better attorney

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Thanks—your link 100% backs-up my assertions about "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine". To quote the judge in the Harrison trial:

"Did Harrison deliberately use the music of He's So Fine? I do not believe he did so deliberately. Nevertheless, it is clear that My Sweet Lord is the very same song as He's So Fine with different words, and Harrison had access to He's So Fine. This is, under the law, infringement of copyright, and is no less so even though subconsciously accomplished."

Case closed.

No, all it backs up is that you and that jury agree

Otherwise you are saying that George Harrison can be "unconsciously" influenced by a song that he heard when he's writing one, but that Page cannot

Harrison admitted in court that he had heard He's So Fine (that's where the case was lost, being honest and having some integrity), Page essentially denied having been aware of Taurus in his case

You find that denial credible? And it's ok if you do because apparently that jury did

It doesn't matter, I'm not taking a side here, forget about what sounds like what or whose music you like
I am saying that Page and Plant had the better lawyer is all
Established CASE LAW would tend to support Spirit's claim, or whoever the guy was that sued

[hsosdrum]

No, all it backs up is that you and that jury agree

Otherwise you are saying that George Harrison can be "unconsciously" influenced by a song that he heard when he's writing one, but that Page cannot

Harrison admitted in court that he had heard He's So Fine (that's where the case was lost, being honest and having some integrity), Page essentially denied having been aware of Taurus in his case

You find that denial credible?

Absolutely: "He's So Fine" was an international hit song; "Taurus" was an album cut that received no airplay on commercial radio at the time it was released. Anyone listening to pop music on the radio in an English-speaking country in 1963 heard "He's So Fine" over and over (and as I said earlier, the Beatles were big consumers of pop music at that time). Nobody (on either side of the Atlantic) ever heard "Taurus" on the radio.

But beyond the issue of having previously heard the plaintiff's song, the musical similarities between "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine" are numerous, exist throughout the entire song and cannot be explained as musical motifs that have been common in folk and popular music into the previous century; the musical similarities there are between "Taurus" and "Stairway" are minor, and can be explained in precisely that way. When the songs are taken in their entirety, "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine" are musically nearly identical; "Stairway to Heaven" and "Taurus" are musically light-years apart.

Oh, and the quote backs up that the judge and I agree, both about the facts of the case and about the law.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Oh, and the quote backs up that the judge and I agree, both about the facts of the case and about the law.

I was referring to the jury in the Zep case and the burden of proof in a copyright infringement case
Note the word "infringement" and not "larceny" or "theft"
The fellow in the little video to be found in SEAWOLF97's first post I believe explains what the burden of proof is in these cases
It does not have to be a note for note transcription in order to qualify as an infringement
Basically, close enough for horse shoes and hand grenades, that is why the Harrison case is so sad and why most of these cases today are settled and settled quickly out of court
Some of these cases that I have reviewed make me wonder if the jurists can even hear or not, but that's another matter

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Nobody (on either side of the Atlantic) ever heard "Taurus" on the radio.

For real?

Spirit is the debut album by rock band Spirit, released on January 22, 1968. The experimental album was commercially successful, spending more than six months on the Billboard album charts,^[3] peaking at #31, and garnered significant underground FM airtime^{[citation needed]}. The album was first published by Ode Records in 1968. It has since been reprinted by Sony, repackaged in compact-disc form and remastered from original analogue tapes.

You didn't have college radio, album oriented FM or Dr. Demento where you lived?
I grew up in a college town and those two tunes were much discussed over lids of herb back in the day, I know, wait, I read about it in a book , and argued over in certain circles for years actually, and I'm pretty sure Jimmy heard it because it was played during sets a few times on the same stage where he was playing
Then again, considering Jimmy's lifestyle choices at the time, maybe he doesn't remember

Joe

#25 on the U.S. Top 100 on March 15, 1969
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtlSD-DLq4g

Plenty of people had heard and knew who Spirit were before they had ever heard of Led Zeppelin, on both sides of the Atlantic, and for what it's worth, at the first show, Led Zeppelin was the back up band

The Family That Plays Together, the second of four albums released by the original Spirit lineup, was marketed by Ode Records in December 1968
Album

Year	Chart	Position
1969	Billboard 200	22
1969	RPM Magazine Top 50	46
1972	Billboard 200	189

Singles

Song	Chart	Position
I Got A Line On You, Babe	RPM Magazine	28

Zeppelin's first album made it to 10 on the Billboard 200

[hsosdrum]

Considering how late the headlining act often started their set back in those days (and all the "warm-up" activities that took place inside closed dressing rooms) I'd say it's very likely that Page never heard Spirit's set any of the times that they shared a bill with Zep.

One concert I attended (in November of 1968) featured the Jeff Beck Group w/Rod Stewart, Ron Wood, Nicky Hopkins and Mick Waller (JBG), Ten Years After (TYA), the Moody Blues (MB) and the Outlaw Blues Band (OBB). The venue had two stages (two bands on each) so that the music would be continuous even with equipment changes (which were notoriously lengthy back in those days). All acts (except OBB) were scheduled to play 2 sets. OBB opens from Stage #2, followed promptly by TYA on Stage #1 while MB's gear is being set up on Stage #2. TYA finishes, and MB begins on Stage #2 while JBG's gear goes up on Stage #1. So far, everything's running smoothly—TYA and MB play great sets, and we're all set for JBG's first set.

Except, of course, that JBG are nowhere to be found. After about 15 minutes of dead air, the promoter has MB play their second set, hoping that JBG will show up during MB's set and play their first. MB finishes, still no JBG. So TYA's gear goes back up on Stage #1 (with more dead air) and TYA totally rocks the house. Change back to JBG's gear on Stage #1 (with even more dead air) and at around 12:45am Beck et al. finally show up and play an absolutely amazing 2-hour set—maybe the best set I've ever seen at a rock concert (and that includes Cream, Hendrix, Zep, Deep Purple, the Who and too many more to recount here). They began with "Beck's Bolero", played just about everything from the "Truth" album, the Yardbirds' "Train Kept a'Rollin'" and "Jeff's Boogie" (including a guitar cadenza which Beck climaxed by finger-picking a perfect rendition of "Theme From the Beverly Hillbillies" on his Les Paul at lightning speed) and ended with a blistering version of "Ain't Superstitious".

Years later, when I was a salesman at an audio dealer in L.A. and I had the pleasure of selling a small audio system to Nicky Hopkins, I mentioned being at that concert and asked him if he remembered why the JBG had arrived so late that night. He shook his head and said "Man, we were always partying before the gig. I don't think we were ever on time to a single one."

I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true for Led Zeppelin back in those days.

[Joseph Smith Jr]

When the songs are taken in their entirety, "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine" are musically nearly identical; "Stairway to Heaven" and "Taurus" are musically light-years apart.

The Stairway to Heaven lawsuit wasn't over any work in it's entirety, it was over the intro, and all they wanted from Page was an "inspired by" type credit

I would be very interested in hearing the basis for the judge's ruling not allowing the jury to hear the actual Spirit recording of their song Taurus and instead some guy with an acoustic guitar and some sheet music, some very good lawyering had to have been going on!

Then the jury could have better appreciated the identical bass lines and the fact that both were finger picked in the same meter with the same phrasing, both an attempt at conveying a Late Medieval or Renaissance feel

I am going to see if I can obtain a copy of the transcript, at least in regards to the no play the song for the jury part of it, I'd love to know the reasoning and law behind it

Too many coincidences, the Spirit attorney was a chump

Joe

[Joseph Smith Jr]

Considering how late the headlining act often started their set back in those days (and all the "warm-up" activities that took place inside closed dressing rooms) I'd say it's very likely that Page never heard Spirit's set any of the times that they shared a bill with Zep.

1960s[edit]

Early demo recordings by the band were produced by their Topanga Canyon roommate Barry Hansen, later known as radio host Dr. Demento.^[1] In August 1967, record producer Lou Adler signed the band to his label Ode Records. The group's first album, Spirit, was released in 1968. "Mechanical World" was released as a single (it lists the playing time merely as "very long"). The album was a hit, reaching No. 31 on the Billboard 200 and staying on the chart for seven months. The album displayed jazz influences, as well as using elaborate string arrangements (not found on their subsequent recordings) and is the most overtly psychedelic of their albums.^{[citation needed]}
The band capitalized on the success of their first album with another single, "I Got a Line on You". Released in November 1968, a month before their second album, The Family That Plays Together, it became their biggest hit single, reaching No. 25 on the charts (#28 in Canada). The album matched its success, reaching No. 22. In December, they appeared at the Denver Auditorium with support band Led Zeppelin,^[2] who soon after incorporated parts of Spirit's song "Fresh Garbage" in an extended medley during their early 1969 concerts. Spirit also appeared with Led Zeppelin at two outdoormusic festivals in July 1969. Jimmy Page's use of a theremin has been attributed to his seeing Randy California use one that he had mounted to his amplifier;^[3] and Guitar World magazine stated "California's most enduring legacy may well be the fingerpicked acoustic theme of the song 'Taurus', which Jimmy Page lifted virtually note for note for the introduction to 'Stairway to Heaven'."^[4] Page may have reworked a riff from "Taurus" while composing "Stairway to Heaven"; The Independent remarked upon the similarity in 1997.^[5] In 2014, Mark Andes, and a trust acting on behalf of Randy California, filed a unsuccessful copyright infringement suit against Led Zeppelin in an attempt to obtain a writing credit for "Stairway to Heaven".^[6][7] Page denied copying "Taurus"^[8] and the suit was unsuccessful.^[9]
After the success of their early records, the group was asked by French film director Jacques Demy to record thesoundtrack to his film Model Shop, and they also made a brief appearance in the film.^{[citation needed]} Their third album,Clear, released in 1969, reached No. 55 on the charts.

[SEAWOLF97]

.
except for concept copying

You Don’t Know the Real Beatles Until You’ve Heard Sgt. Pepper’s in Mono

http://observer.com/2016/06/49-years...etter-in-mono/

"In mono, “Sgt. Pepper’s” is a tough, tight, almost bitter album that is far more of a “rock” record than the stereo version I grew up with."

[Joseph Smith Jr]

.
except for concept copying

You Don’t Know the Real Beatles Until You’ve Heard Sgt. Pepper’s in Mono

http://observer.com/2016/06/49-years...etter-in-mono/

"In mono, “Sgt. Pepper’s” is a tough, tight, almost bitter album that is far more of a “rock” record than the stereo version I grew up with."

It's your thread
Well written and I agree, the two mixes are like listening to two different records
People have talked about it for a long time and I wish they'd STOP!
The price is through the roof now for an original
I have procrastinated for years now on buying an English, new or like new first pressing and when I first thought of the possibility they were still affordable
Not so much anymore
When I was a kid, could only afford one copy of anything and barely that, so my first copy bought in 1967 is a Capitol stereo, still have it in shrink wrap with the card stock cutouts sheet intact
Had an older brother who convinced us all that the stereo version of any record was better, even though a mono copy of just about any title was a dollar or more less, cost being a big deal to me in '67
Still is!
I do own the mono re-issues, they are worth spending the money if you love the Beatles
"The Beatles" (white album) sounds better to my ears in mono as well

Joe

[hsosdrum]

I got the mono re-masters set on CD and totally agree about the sound: much tighter and more focused in mono. And since when I was a kid we always bought the mono LPs (they were a buck cheaper than the stereo versions) I connect more with the mono mixes. That being said, "The Beatles" (white album) was never originally released in mono in the U.S., so listening to the mono re-master was very jarring for me—it does indeed sound like a completely different record. I had to buy the stereo re-master just so it would jive with my memories of it and sound "right", so now I have both. (One day I'll have to do an A/B comparison from a sound quality perspective.)