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Thread: Altec Horns In a Hartsfield?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    Would 2215B driver work? I bought a pair of 4502 studio monitors yesterday, and that's what they came with.
    The 2215 is the commercial version of the LE15, and would be a very poor choice as a horn loader. One my pet peeves about JBL is when the company opted to load the Paragon with the LE 15. IMO, it was a colossal bonehead move, since the 130A was used in the C31, C34, and C43 ( C435 ), and as an option in the C55 ( C550 ). I'm just glad the Hartsfield didn't suffer the same fate before it was taken out of production. I'm not sure it would have even fit in the Top Loader Hartsfield. The build up of plywood on the inside of the service panel allowed just enough room for the magnet cover of the 150-4C. The volume of that chamber couldn't have been more than a cubic foot, probably less. I know the company loaded the 4500 series theater horns with the 2205, but that model makes for a mediocre horn loader also. I have also seen many images on the internet of 4520's loaded with LE 15's. I can safely state that box loaded with the LE 15 produces a week bass.

    Also, the fs of the 2215 is far too low a frequency for horn loading. The horn fc would be approximately 18 Hz, and to design an exponential or hyperbolic horn around that frequency for domestic use would result in what is called a discontinuity. Meaning, the horn wouldn't have a chance to have a useful expansion which would make it behave more like a short horn loaded port. In order for a horn with an fc of 18 Hz to expand to something useful would require an inordinate degree of floor space, not to mention an inordinate amount of lumber to build it. Not only that, but the chamber volume required for the 2215 in addition to constructing a large horn in front or back of it would preclude any notion of construction of a reasonably sized horn for domestic use.

    "I bought a pair of 4502 studio monitors yesterday, and that's what they came with"

    And that is where the 2215 shines. In a vented enclosure.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Uuuuhhhhh
    I can not imagine to realize such

    ivica
    That lay out is from a Japanese site where all the dimensions were converted to metric, including the wrong ones I sighted.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Challenger604 View Post
    You have to be an expert to make a Hartfield! You really have to know what you are doing!
    That's what I was saying below...
    It may have been Don McRitchie who wrote that the internal geometry change from the Top Loader Hartsfield to the Coffin Back model came about because of the labor intensive hassle it was to service the 150-4C. If anyone has taken one apart they'll know what I mean. Imo, the Top Loader model is much easier to cut and assemble, which is comprised of considerably fewer parts and cuts. I wonder if that was the real reason, as it would have made sense to just turn the Hartsfield bass section upside down, making the driver service panel more accessible. Doing so wouldn't have made a difference acoustically.

    However, in an article about the Jubliee, Paul Klipsch himself praised the new design over the former because the Jubilee followed a single axis folding geometry, versus the contorted geometry of the KlipscHorn. It may be possible that the Coffin Back bass section as a single axis folding geometry offers a higher frequency range than the contorted Top Loader configuration.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horn Fanatic View Post
    With an EBP of 89.2 the 2216Nd would not be my choice as a horn loader.
    Hi Horn Fan..,

    Thank You.
    so from
    http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq6

    "I did say that a driver that would be good for use in a horn usually has an EBP (efficiency bandwidth product) of greater than 130. This is not the rule though, it is only a guide. EBP is Fs divided by Qes and gives a rough approximation of how well the motor system can control the cone. It doesn't always follow that high EBP figures automatically make the driver suitable for horn loading, there are so many parameters that dictate which driver to chose for a particular horn and so many different horns for different jobs."

    But with Radian 2216 (EBP=38.7/0.43) almost like JBL 2214nd EBP......something interesting
    http://inlowsound.weebly.com/spiral-bass-horn.html



    Regards
    ivica


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Hi Horn Fan..,

    Thank You.
    so from
    http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq6

    "I did say that a driver that would be good for use in a horn usually has an EBP (efficiency bandwidth product) of greater than 130. This is not the rule though, it is only a guide. EBP is Fs divided by Qes and gives a rough approximation of how well the motor system can control the cone. It doesn't always follow that high EBP figures automatically make the driver suitable for horn loading, there are so many parameters that dictate which driver to chose for a particular horn and so many different horns for different jobs."

    But with Radian 2216 (EBP=38.7/0.43) almost like JBL 2214nd EBP......something interesting
    http://inlowsound.weebly.com/spiral-bass-horn.html



    Regards
    ivica

    Hi ivica -

    I have written on other threads regarding the topic of EBP, as it is the first figure I consider, but not the only. An EBP of 130 may be acceptable to some, but not me. Again, the lower the number, the larger the chamber must be. Stuffing a driver with a low EBP into a small chamber will result in not so articulate bass. Sure, the L-F may be there, but what does it sound like?

    A driver with a high EBP will produce the low end with a higher degree of 'snap', tightness, articulation. This is the point I make aboput the difference between the 150-4C and LE 15 in the Paragon. I knew within 3 seconds on a test CD the 150 is a far superior horn driver than the LE 15. As a test, I loaded an ALTEC 416-8B into a 4530 horn cabinet, and the result was awful.

    The EBP for the 416-8B is 76. The EBP for the 2220 A is 194.73. The hearing is in the believing why a driver with a low EBP such as the 2215 & 416-8B are not suitable for horn loading.

    H.F.

  6. #21
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horn Fanatic View Post
    Hi ivica -

    I have written on other threads regarding the topic of EBP, as it is the first figure I consider, but not the only. An EBP of 130 may be acceptable to some, but not me. Again, the lower the number, the larger the chamber must be. Stuffing a driver with a low EBP into a small chamber will result in not so articulate bass. Sure, the L-F may be there, but what does it sound like?

    A driver with a high EBP will produce the low end with a higher degree of 'snap', tightness, articulation. This is the point I make aboput the difference between the 150-4C and LE 15 in the Paragon. I knew within 3 seconds on a test CD the 150 is a far superior horn driver than the LE 15. As a test, I loaded an ALTEC 416-8B into a 4530 horn cabinet, and the result was awful.

    The EBP for the 416-8B is 76. The EBP for the 2220 A is 194.73. The hearing is in the believing why a driver with a low EBP such as the 2215 & 416-8B are not suitable for horn loading.

    H.F.
    Hi Horn Fanatic,
    Many thank for Your more elaboration about bass horn application.
    I have no experience in that area.
    One question :have You ever seen something technical explanation about port position on the baffle relative to the driver placemen,and the box size and its dimensions.?

    Regards
    Ivica

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horn Fanatic View Post
    The 2215 is the commercial version of the LE15, and would be a very poor choice as a horn loader. One my pet peeves about JBL is when the company opted to load the Paragon with the LE 15. IMO, it was a colossal bonehead move, since the 130A was used in the C31, C34, and C43 ( C435 ), and as an option in the C55 ( C550 ). I'm just glad the Hartsfield didn't suffer the same fate before it was taken out of production. I'm not sure it would have even fit in the Top Loader Hartsfield. The build up of plywood on the inside of the service panel allowed just enough room for the magnet cover of the 150-4C. The volume of that chamber couldn't have been more than a cubic foot, probably less. I know the company loaded the 4500 series theater horns with the 2205, but that model makes for a mediocre horn loader also. I have also seen many images on the internet of 4520's loaded with LE 15's. I can safely state that box loaded with the LE 15 produces a week bass.

    Also, the fs of the 2215 is far too low a frequency for horn loading. The horn fc would be approximately 18 Hz, and to design an exponential or hyperbolic horn around that frequency for domestic use would result in what is called a discontinuity. Meaning, the horn wouldn't have a chance to have a useful expansion which would make it behave more like a short horn loaded port. In order for a horn with an fc of 18 Hz to expand to something useful would require an inordinate degree of floor space, not to mention an inordinate amount of lumber to build it. Not only that, but the chamber volume required for the 2215 in addition to constructing a large horn in front or back of it would preclude any notion of construction of a reasonably sized horn for domestic use.

    "I bought a pair of 4502 studio monitors yesterday, and that's what they came with"

    And that is where the 2215 shines. In a vented enclosure.
    After I posted that question I did some reading and came to the same conclusion. I ended up getting a pair of 130A woofers and I found a pair of 2390 horns. I think I'm going to get a 2441 driver for the horns. From what I've read, they go higher than the 2440, so I won't need a tweeter. Correct me if I am wrong.

  8. #23
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    Glad to see you haven't been put off from your horn-loaded endeavour .

    Here's a nice thread ( over at DIY ) for a bit of inspiration . ( Click the pic )



    It's well worth the read time to understand the story behind this particular pair of BLH (back-loaded-horn ) Jensen copies.

    One of the beauties of the pictured system is that because the front baffle ( holding the woofer & horn ) must be removable it allows a person to try different horns in place ( to find what works best for their situation ) .

    I happen to like Radials ( particularly the throat-less variety / first championed by W.E. post WWII) .

    Name:  KS-12025.PNG
Views: 891
Size:  166.8 KB

    I listen to an Altec 288-8K through an Emilar EH-500-2 Radial Horn ( using a 1.4"-2" adapter ) .

    BTW, Brazilian clones of the QSC horn ( seen in the first pic ) are being blown out by P.E. for a measly $10.00 USD .

    Canadians will want to purchase them through P.E.'s eBay store front ( it's the cheapest shipping into Canada since it goes through the Global Shipping System ) . ( Click the pic for the link )

    Name:  PRV Horn.jpg
Views: 537
Size:  23.1 KB

    Forget the original ad-copy for this horn, it's a planar ( mostly conical ) wave-guide ( with no exponential curves ).
    - The biggest knock against it ( being planar/conical ) is though it's big, it barely affords a 1K crossover point ( not really a problem when using 130's / 2220's ).


    Here's an expensive ( almost throat-less / QUICK-ENTRY ) Radial close in size to the 811b that you mentioned ( & a lot more affordable ).

    I consider this a great project-horn opportunity.
    Click the pic! ( again this seller uses the Global Shipping System available to US sellers that saves You & I money/ plus allows one to figure out actual "Landed Costs" since this includes taxes, duties & brokerage ).



  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertg View Post
    After I posted that question I did some reading and came to the same conclusion. I ended up getting a pair of 130A woofers and I found a pair of 2390 horns. I think I'm going to get a 2441 driver for the horns. From what I've read, they go higher than the 2440, so I won't need a tweeter. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Very good choice and find on the 130A. The 2440 was the commercial number assigned to the 375 driver. The 375 began to tank around 7.5KHz, whereas the 2441 began to tank around 10KHz. Keep in mind when 375 driver was developed, the dynamic range of movie sound tracks back in the day wasn't that great.

    As for using a tweeter, only you can make that call. The 2440 isn't capable of producing the 'sizzle' of a tweeter.

    H.F.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Glad to see you haven't been put off from your horn-loaded endeavour .

    Here's a nice thread ( over at DIY ) for a bit of inspiration . ( Click the pic )



    It's well worth the read time to understand the story behind this particular pair of BLH (back-loaded-horn ) Jensen copies.

    One of the beauties of the pictured system is that because the front baffle ( holding the woofer & horn ) must be removable it allows a person to try different horns in place ( to find what works best for their situation ) .

    I happen to like Radials ( particularly the throat-less variety / first championed by W.E. post WWII) .

    Name:  KS-12025.PNG
Views: 891
Size:  166.8 KB

    I listen to an Altec 288-8K through an Emilar EH-500-2 Radial Horn ( using a 1.4"-2" adapter ) .

    BTW, Brazilian clones of the QSC horn ( seen in the first pic ) are being blown out by P.E. for a measly $10.00 USD .

    Canadians will want to purchase them through P.E.'s eBay store front ( it's the cheapest shipping into Canada since it goes through the Global Shipping System ) . ( Click the pic for the link )

    Name:  PRV Horn.jpg
Views: 537
Size:  23.1 KB

    Forget the original ad-copy for this horn, it's a planar ( mostly conical ) wave-guide ( with no exponential curves ).
    - The biggest knock against it ( being planar/conical ) is though it's big, it barely affords a 1K crossover point ( not really a problem when using 130's / 2220's ).


    Here's an expensive ( almost throat-less / QUICK-ENTRY ) Radial close in size to the 811b that you mentioned ( & a lot more affordable ).

    I consider this a great project-horn opportunity.
    Click the pic! ( again this seller uses the Global Shipping System available to US sellers that saves You & I money/ plus allows one to figure out actual "Landed Costs" since this includes taxes, duties & brokerage ).


    I built a pair of the Jensen folded horn enclosures, and much to my expectation the design delivers very articulate bass. I loaded them with the G610 Triax.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Glad to see you haven't been put off from your horn-loaded endeavour .

    Here's a nice thread ( over at DIY ) for a bit of inspiration . ( Click the pic )



    It's well worth the read time to understand the story behind this particular pair of BLH (back-loaded-horn ) Jensen copies.

    One of the beauties of the pictured system is that because the front baffle ( holding the woofer & horn ) must be removable it allows a person to try different horns in place ( to find what works best for their situation ) .

    I happen to like Radials ( particularly the throat-less variety / first championed by W.E. post WWII) .

    Name:  KS-12025.PNG
Views: 891
Size:  166.8 KB

    I listen to an Altec 288-8K through an Emilar EH-500-2 Radial Horn ( using a 1.4"-2" adapter ) .

    BTW, Brazilian clones of the QSC horn ( seen in the first pic ) are being blown out by P.E. for a measly $10.00 USD .

    Canadians will want to purchase them through P.E.'s eBay store front ( it's the cheapest shipping into Canada since it goes through the Global Shipping System ) . ( Click the pic for the link )

    Name:  PRV Horn.jpg
Views: 537
Size:  23.1 KB

    Forget the original ad-copy for this horn, it's a planar ( mostly conical ) wave-guide ( with no exponential curves ).
    - The biggest knock against it ( being planar/conical ) is though it's big, it barely affords a 1K crossover point ( not really a problem when using 130's / 2220's ).


    Here's an expensive ( almost throat-less / QUICK-ENTRY ) Radial close in size to the 811b that you mentioned ( & a lot more affordable ).

    I consider this a great project-horn opportunity.
    Click the pic! ( again this seller uses the Global Shipping System available to US sellers that saves You & I money/ plus allows one to figure out actual "Landed Costs" since this includes taxes, duties & brokerage ).


    I built a test pair of the Jensen folded horn enclosures, and much to my expectation the design delivers very articulate bass. I loaded them with the G610 Triax. I hope in the near future to load them with the 2220 driver.

    The only mod I did was to build the boxes without the 'wings', as they are redundant. The box is less intrusive without them.

    H.F.

    BTW - As I have seen no evidence that Jensen put that design into production, the only commercial application I know of is a system Electro-voice produced which was taller to accommodate a high frequency section. That cabinet was only 24 inches wide, as mine are. I have also seen a drawing for a University version of the Jensen horn that was also extended to accommodate a large radial horn.

    As you know since you found the magazine article drawing for the Jensen, there was also a shorter version to house a 12 inch CoAx.

  12. #27
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    Le15b

    What about the 15b with foam surround?

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