Another sad day for JBL

[Ian Mackenzie]

I looked at the Harman corporate web page and it tells much of the future direction.

JBL synthesis (JBL Luxury)is but a postage stamp on the overall conglomerate.

My impression is that the JBL synthesis is a small flagship line that won't need much further development in the near future while JBL home speakers will be trickle down tech from JBL professional (M2) like a line extension umbilical.

It seems this was a "done" deal with the arrival of the M2wave-guide.

So why did they need a consumer engineering department? Not at bean counter level.

It sucks as everything in the me too consumer line tools like pub AV equipment with vinyl veneer wrapping. A far cry from the decade series, the L300 and the Ti line.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the JBL monitor line?

[pos]

My impression is that the JBL synthesis is a small flagship line that won't need much further development in the near future while JBL home speakers will be trickle down tech from JBL professional (M2) like a line extension umbilical.

It seems this was a "done" deal with the arrival of the M2wave-guide.

So why did they need a consumer engineering department?

The 2216nd actually comes form consumer, it is Jerry Moro's design.
As are those synthesis small monitors, too...

[cooky1257]

It's a shame but a pattern repeated across the world as corporate growth and maximising share price is a the obsession/legal responsibility of every CEO.
What galls me is the myopia, the brain dead money blind short-termism that ignores the essence, the source of the innovation, the inevitable trickle down into the broader consumer lines that will be lost when those areas of traditional R&D excellence are abandoned. It's voracious capitalism at its worst.

[Wagner]

It's voracious capitalism at its worst.

I disagree and it certainly did not start out that way.
What we are dealing with today (and paying the price for) are the unintended consequences of The Marshall Plan, aka: nation building by economic means
The intent was positive in nature and early on it's purpose was to prevent militarization, the rise of communism and to antagonize the Soviet Union

All good things, right?

Although technically The Marshall Plan did not extend to Japan (in name and by legislation), similar activities were conducted there under the guidance of General Douglas MacArthur

The Korean War solidified our entanglement in the Pacific sphere of economic activity even further

Japan and Germany both enjoyed strong industrial bases, good infrastructure and an educated population BEFORE the War
Japan still exerted strong economic influence over it's former colonies as well (where a lot of the consumer junk we enjoy today still comes from and comes from even more)

Many of us here are old enough to remember well the flood of German electronics into this country, then automobiles ever growing from the early '50s onward. And as for Japan? Their goods a bit later (remember Pearl Harbor, the buying public here resisted for a while) but eventually Americans got over that one, just take a look at Toyota for a good model/example..........and KENWOOD and Pioneer and JVC and SONY and on and on and on.............but it all started with cheap toys and pots and pans............the brunt of jokes during my childhood

It is a case of the best of intentions and at the same time growing complacent and being lulled into a false sense of security often enjoyed by the victors in any cataclysmic struggle. Without attempting to construct a doctoral thesis or tome, our best laid (geopolitical) efforts exceeded, I think, our wildest dreams, a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and we have lived with it all of the decades following WWII..............and yes, by the 1970s greed may have certainly become a factor in some dealings but it was never the original intent.............one could say for example that the gas lines of the Carter years helped to solidify the Jap auto makers market here, or Iacocca opening the door for Mitsubishi built automobiles wearing Dodge and Plymouth name tags (that one still gets me the most)

Remember how initially, for the most part with the Japanese, it was more a matter of OUR technology and engineering married with THEIR execution? But that changed very quickly (think American automobiles, German cameras and eventually audio electronics) Semi Valley Marantz (starting with Superscope), Sherwood and "still headquartered in the U.S.A. Fisher products comes to mind...........and these examples are but a few

As for engineers? No Marshal Plan and back door visas for former Nazi employees, no Moon walk..............or ICBMs

A LOT of sharing and cross pollination but initially it was kept from public view (unless you were willing to dig really deep, deeper that the average consumer cared to)

Enough of this, but I just have to say that criticizing endlessly the evils of FREE market capitalism is an over simplification at best and simply plain ignorance at worst. What is happening at JBL (and a 100 other once great companies) is nothing more than a continuum of a series of events that started long ago, 1945 to be exact. Left as it was originally, things might have turned out differently (think Avery Fisher and his "Dutchmen")

What is happening at JBL TODAY is in large part the result of labor unions, the EPA and a myriad of other destructive domestic "progressive" GOVERNMENTAL (POLITICIANS and SPECIAL INTERESTS) actions as it is the fault of any "bean counter", CEO or board of directors

I'm not defending them (CEOs and Board Rooms), because in many instances they are the same scum bags who help elect the folks making up these rules of the "new game", because yes, they are greedy pigs. But my point is that who one elects to office in THIS COUNTRY does and will have long lasting effects eventually as well as short, and for the past 40 years or so, not so happy ones

That, and the fact that people's "wants" have been manipulated and changed through marketing and now this "group think" brought on by "social media" (the devil's eyeball) to the point of being unrecognizable

I started ranting about 25 years ago that the way things were going we'd soon be getting ALL of our news, entertainment, music and everything else under the Sun from the same (few) monolithic sources and via a handful of "providers" and through a singular device or delivery system technology

Not quite 100% there just yet, but for all practical purposes, that day is now

JBL and others hung on as long as they did thanks to the fact that much of their technology and innovation was proprietary and the environment they existed in at the time immediately following the War wasn't as yet so punitive towards their activities.................that and the fact that America enjoyed the lion's share of the greatest Audio minds there have ever been.................and location (my remarks regarding the costs related to shipping such heavy consumer ("luxury") goods and at the time an abundance of raw materials, namely a cheap and readily available supply of timber products)

I mean who the hell even sits around and grooves to a (good) STEREO system anymore anyway? In any sort of meaningful numbers from a manufacturing standpoint? The closest thing left is the "home theater" crowd, and 95% of them are perfectly happy with an all in one box of plastic shit "system" so there you have it, no engineering required just as long as it goes "tizz, BOOM" REAL LOUD..................and looks "cool"

It's over, and it's over in more ways than one

[SEAWOLF97]

Japan and Germany both enjoyed strong industrial bases, good infrastructure and an educated population BEFORE the War
Japan still exerted strong economic influence over it's former colonies as well (where a lot of the consumer junk we enjoy today still comes from and comes from even more)

I agree with a huge percentage of your latest post, but find the term "Jap" as offensive. They deserve more respect than that. Funny thing is ..internally they only use the name Japan for export. Their daily usage name in "Nippon"

Yes , Japan & Germany had superior industrial capacity before WW2 . The US played "catch up" for quite a while. Japans output was crippled by the war and they have very little natural resources. (The US blocking their importation of oil was one of the factors leading to the Pearl Harbor attack). And you are correct that they got back to manufacturing through toys and consumer goods.

An American businessman , William Edwards Deming used his skills to transform them

"Deming is best known for his work in Japan after WWII, particularly his work with the leaders of Japanese industry. That work began in August 1950 at the Hakone Convention Center in Tokyo when Deming delivered a seminal speech on what he called Statistical Product Quality Administration. Many in Japan credit Deming as the inspiration for what has become known as the Japanese post-war economic miracle of 1950 to 1960, when Japan rose from the ashes of war to start Japan on the road to becoming the second largest economy in the world through processes founded on the ideas Deming taught.

Deming made a significant contribution to Japan's reputation for innovative, high-quality products, and for its economic power. He is regarded as having had more impact on Japanese manufacturing and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage. Despite being honored in Japan in 1951 with the establishment of the Deming Prize, he was only just beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his death in 1993.[6] President Ronald Reagan awarded him the National Medal of Technology in 1987. The following year, the National Academy of Sciences gave Deming the Distinguished Career in Science award."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Deming's teachings and philosophy are clearly illustrated by examining the results they produced after they were adopted by Japanese industry, as the following example shows. Ford Motor Company was simultaneously manufacturing a car model with transmissions made in Japan and the United States. Soon after the car model was on the market, Ford customers were requesting the model with Japanese transmission over the US-made transmission, and they were willing to wait for the Japanese model. As both transmissions were made to the same specifications, Ford engineers could not understand the customer preference for the model with Japanese transmission. Finally, Ford engineers decided to take apart the two different transmissions. The American-made car parts were all within specified tolerance levels. On the other hand, the Japanese car parts were virtually identical to each other, and much closer to the nominal values for the parts – e.g., if a part was supposed to be one foot long, plus or minus 1/8 of an inch – then the Japanese parts were all within 1/16 of an inch, less variation. This made the Japanese cars run more smoothly and customers experienced fewer problems

wish he was around today for Harmin'

Ford Motor Company was one of the first American corporations to seek help from Deming. In 1981, Ford's sales were falling. Between 1979 and 1982, Ford had incurred $3 billion in losses. Ford's newly appointed Corporate Quality Director, Larry Moore, was charged with recruiting Deming to help jump-start a quality movement at Ford.[23] Deming questioned the company's culture and the way its managers operated. To Ford's surprise, Deming talked not about quality but about management. He told Ford that management actions were responsible for 85% of all problems in developing better cars.

In 1982, Deming's book Quality, Productivity, and Competitive Position was published by the MIT Center for Advanced Engineering, and was renamed Out of the Crisis in 1986. In it, he offers a theory of management based on his famous 14 Points for Management. Management's failure to plan for the future brings about loss of market, which brings about loss of jobs. Management must be judged not only by the quarterly dividend, but by innovative plans to stay in business, protect investment, ensure future dividends, and provide more jobs through improved products and services. "Long-term commitment to new learning and new philosophy is required of any management that seeks transformation. The timid and the fainthearted, and the people that expect quick results, are doomed to disappointment."

In the 1970s, Deming's philosophy was summarized by some of his Japanese proponents with the following 'a'-versus-'b' comparison:

(a) When people and organizations focus primarily on quality, defined by the following ratio,

Quality = Results of work efforts (divided by) Total costs

quality tends to increase and costs fall over time.

(b) However, when people and organizations focus primarily on costs, costs tend to rise and quality declines over time.


The Wiki entry is fascinating if you are interested in management or production/quality.

[300_Summit]

I disagree and it certainly did not start out that way.
What we are dealing with today (and paying the price for) are the unintended consequences of The Marshall Plan, aka: nation building by economic means
The intent was positive in nature and early on it's purpose was to prevent militarization, the rise of communism and to antagonize the Soviet Union

All good things, right?

Although technically The Marshall Plan did not extend to Japan (in name and by legislation), similar activities were conducted there under the guidance of General Douglas MacArthur

The Korean War solidified our entanglement in the Pacific sphere of economic activity even further

Japan and Germany both enjoyed strong industrial bases, good infrastructure and an educated population BEFORE the War
Japan still exerted strong economic influence over it's former colonies as well (where a lot of the consumer junk we enjoy today still comes from and comes from even more)

Many of us here are old enough to remember well the flood of German electronics into this country, then automobiles ever growing from the early '50s onward. And as for Japan? Their goods a bit later (remember Pearl Harbor, the buying public here resisted for a while) but eventually Americans got over that one, just take a look at Toyota for a good model/example..........and KENWOOD and Pioneer and JVC and SONY and on and on and on.............but it all started with cheap toys and pots and pans............the brunt of jokes during my childhood

It is a case of the best of intentions and at the same time growing complacent and being lulled into a false sense of security often enjoyed by the victors in any cataclysmic struggle. Without attempting to construct a doctoral thesis or tome, our best laid (geopolitical) efforts exceeded, I think, our wildest dreams, a Frankenstein's monster of sorts, and we have lived with it all of the decades following WWII..............and yes, by the 1970s greed may have certainly become a factor in some dealings but it was never the original intent.............one could say for example that the gas lines of the Carter years helped to solidify the Jap auto makers market here, or Iacocca opening the door for Mitsubishi built automobiles wearing Dodge and Plymouth name tags (that one still gets me the most)

Remember how initially, for the most part with the Japanese, it was more a matter of OUR technology and engineering married with THEIR execution? But that changed very quickly (think American automobiles, German cameras and eventually audio electronics) Semi Valley Marantz (starting with Superscope), Sherwood and "still headquartered in the U.S.A. Fisher products comes to mind...........and these examples are but a few

As for engineers? No Marshal Plan and back door visas for former Nazi employees, no Moon walk..............or ICBMs

A LOT of sharing and cross pollination but initially it was kept from public view (unless you were willing to dig really deep, deeper that the average consumer cared to)

Enough of this, but I just have to say that criticizing endlessly the evils of FREE market capitalism is an over simplification at best and simply plain ignorance at worst. What is happening at JBL (and a 100 other once great companies) is nothing more than a continuum of a series of events that started long ago, 1945 to be exact. Left as it was originally, things might have turned out differently (think Avery Fisher and his "Dutchmen")

What is happening at JBL TODAY is in large part the result of labor unions, the EPA and a myriad of other destructive domestic "progressive" GOVERNMENTAL (POLITICIANS and SPECIAL INTERESTS) actions as it is the fault of any "bean counter", CEO or board of directors

I'm not defending them (CEOs and Board Rooms), because in many instances they are the same scum bags who help elect the folks making up these rules of the "new game", because yes, they are greedy pigs. But my point is that who one elects to office in THIS COUNTRY does and will have long lasting effects eventually as well as short, and for the past 40 years or so, not so happy ones

That, and the fact that people's "wants" have been manipulated and changed through marketing and now this "group think" brought on by "social media" (the devil's eyeball) to the point of being unrecognizable

I started ranting about 25 years ago that the way things were going we'd soon be getting ALL of our news, entertainment, music and everything else under the Sun from the same (few) monolithic sources and via a handful of "providers" and through a singular device or delivery system technology

Not quite 100% there just yet, but for all practical purposes, that day is now

JBL and others hung on as long as they did thanks to the fact that much of their technology and innovation was proprietary and the environment they existed in at the time immediately following the War wasn't as yet so punitive towards their activities.................that and the fact that America enjoyed the lion's share of the greatest Audio minds there have ever been.................that and location (my remarks regarding the costs related to shipping such heavy consumer ("luxury") goods and an at the time an abundance of raw materials, namely a cheap and readily available supply of timber products)

I mean who the hell even sits around and grooves to a (good) STEREO system anymore anyway? In any sort of meaningful numbers from a manufacturing standpoint? The closest thing left is the "home theater" crowd, and 95% of them are perfectly happy with an all in one box of plastic shit "system" so there you have it, no engineering required just as long as it goes "tizz, BOOM" REAL LOUD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and looks "cool"

It's over, and it's over in more ways than one

Well said.......you're dead on with your analysis


Lamont

[speakerdave]

I THINK I'm following some of this. I read Samuelson and had a course in the economic history of the US, both at the first college that opened after the ark landed. I remember German cars coming to America in the fifties, but I missed the electronics, unless Telefunken GIVING tubes to American amp makers is what is meant. I remember that during upswings, which was about half the time, in the early sixties you could walk in off the street in Buffalo NY and get hired at the Chevy plant, the Ford plant, Republic Steel, Bethlehem steel, Harrison radiator and a bunch of others and be issued a hat, goggles, gloves and a pair of work boots with steel toes and a metatarsal guard and go to work at a wage that would buy you a pair of flats in South Buffalo if you stuck with it. This was in the days before derivative instruments with elusive reality, when investment banking (capital formation?) was being done by gentlemanly types who were to a significant degree shepherding THEIR OWN MONEY into appropriate grazing. Around that time a farmer in Western New York commented in my hearing, "A 2% surplus can ruin any market." I've been busy with other things--Turn your back for five minutes!-- So I'm not sure how to think of the changes that have come about. With funds yellin' for only .25 to .50% and the banks taking a large proportion of that and buying government debt at 3%(?), is that exacerbating the real problem? How much of a surplus of capital might there already be in the world? I wonder if one were to look at capital as a commodity, if it could be argued that a gross surplus could have other bizarre effects besides the creation of tranks and swaps and colossal failures of common sense. I don't necessarily mean a global surplus. Capital is a moveable forager. Wherever an opportunity arises there is an immediate local surplus, driving down the value of other factors in wealth creation as it insists on its return. If anyone knows of reading that would help me approach this question sensibly, I would appreciate knowing about it.

[jlyons]

Wagner, "hasty" in name calling, eg 'stupid' regarding remarks about the history and present conditions at variance with your own analysis. Perhaps defiantly anti 'politically correct' re: racist pejorative "Japs" notwithstanding, we may differ on substance as well as form:
-Income Inequality is evidenced in this thread, where CEO Paliwel gets 13 million, and Greg Timbers less than 2 hundred thousand. Not equal?

Please do not hush those who prefer civil discourse, and don't take suggestion as personal attack.

[Wagner]

Wagner, "hasty" in name calling, eg 'stupid' regarding remarks about the history and present conditions at variance with your own analysis. Perhaps defiantly anti 'politically correct' re: racist pejorative "Japs" notwithstanding, we may differ on substance as well as form:
-Income Inequality is evidenced in this thread, where CEO Paliwel gets 13 million, and Greg Timbers less than 2 hundred thousand. Not equal?

Please do not hush those who prefer civil discourse, and don't take suggestion as personal attack.

We are all free to choose, and pursue, our own paths in the Country
What our "culture" and corporations place a value on, and how they measure it with money, rightly or wrongly so, is another subject altogether...............just take a look at the Arts (the record business comes to mind, the way it used to be anyway) or folks like the Kardashians

As for throwing around the terms "inequality" or "unfair" anytime a wrong, real or perceived is at hand, is in my opinion "stupid"

There is nothing in this World that would indicate that things (anything(s) are either "fair" or "equal"-they never have been and they never will be, that is Human nature

I agree, shafting people that got you to the dance is absolutely unethical-I believe I referred to some of those responsible for what was done to Mr. Timbers (and others) as "pigs" and douche bags" but that doesn't change the fact that that's the way it works (and I am not happy that things are that way)

I made a lot of money for a lot of people (a GREAT DEAL of money) during my working life; guess how many of them even said "thank you" and meant it, let alone compensated me appropriately financially?

My posts were made with regard to the annihilation of our manufacturing prowess and the subsequent (negative) ripple effect it is having on many of the people who helped make it all happen in the first place...............not a philosophical dissertation on modern "economics" which is little more than a philosophy than a discipline to begin with AND subject to constant change depending on the prevailing arguments and circumstances of the day (and the belief held by those holding the purse strings)

[Wagner]

I THINK I'm following some of this. I read Samuelson and had a course in the economic history of the US, both at the first college that opened after the ark landed. I remember German cars coming to America in the fifties, but I missed the electronics, unless Telefunken GIVING tubes to American amp makers is what is meant. I remember that during upswings, which was about half the time, in the early sixties you could walk in off the street in Buffalo NY and get hired at the Chevy plant, the Ford plant, Republic Steel, Bethlehem steel, Harrison radiator and a bunch of others and be issued a hat, goggles, gloves and a pair of work boots with steel toes and a metatarsal guard and go to work at a wage that would buy you a pair of flats in South Buffalo if you stuck with it. This was in the days before derivative instruments with elusive reality, when investment banking (capital formation?) was being done by gentlemanly types who were to a significant degree shepherding THEIR OWN MONEY into appropriate grazing. Around that time a farmer in Western New York commented in my hearing, "A 2% surplus can ruin any market." I've been busy with other things--Turn your back for five minutes!-- So I'm not sure how to think of the changes that have come about. With funds yellin' for only .25 to .50% and the banks taking a large proportion of that and buying government debt at 3%(?), is that exacerbating the real problem? How much of a surplus of capital might there already be in the world? I wonder if one were to look at capital as a commodity if it could be argued that a gross surplus could have other bizarre effects besides the creation of tranks and swaps and colossal failures of common sense. I don't necessarily mean a global surplus. Capital is a moveable forager. Wherever an opportunity arises there is an immediate local surplus, driving down the value of other factors in wealth creation as it insists on its return. If anyone knows of reading that would help me approach this question sensibly, I would appreciate knowing about it.

Plenty of German electronics but not as destructive to our industry as the Japanese Invasion of the late '60s through the '70s; Telefunken, SABA, Blaupunkt, Studer-Revox (Swiss), and the family tree (now defunct) of BASF-Magnetophon-AEG and on and on......................much more than those "give away" tubes you referred and held in high regard by those who could afford them.

The Japanese were never founders of technological culture, rather the "bearers" of ideas borrowed from conquered and colonized peoples in that they have an innate ability to take anything and improve upon it to the point that it is superior in performance as well as cost to produce* and inevitably consuming/assuming the identity of the original design (think Samurai swords, meaning the blades; chinese creation but perfected by the Japanese
What happened to our automotive, electronics and optical industries was simply an ironic "shoe on the other foot" reversal of roles
Quite the ramble, still a good read:

*The tables have turned on Japan (and others) regarding this age old inherent ability, tradition and reality thanks to the same forces and propaganda that we as a nation and the E.U. have bought into, the "global" economy "new world order" nonsense, widening the gap between the "haves" and have nots" to proportions never imaginable before.............these experiments only work out for a little while and once the "wow" factor wears off (DVD layers for only $19.95) you wind up with even more folks so angry with their lives that the collapse of the whole rotten edifice is right around the corner
Just look around the World today

It is nothing more than Colonialism all dressed up in new clothes, implemented with worthless currencies and promises, rather the barrel of a gun or shackles

[Ed Kreamer]

Colleagues;

For those who might want to look into some readable and understandable books, ( Economics can be arcane) Free to Choose, by Milton and Rose Friedman and Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. These were required reading ( along with the Samuelson book) when I was in college when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Ed

[Wagner]

Colleagues;

For those who might want to look into some readable and understandable books, ( Economics can be arcane) Free to Choose, by Milton and Rose Friedman and Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. These were required reading ( along with the Samuelson book) when I was in college when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Ed

"Economics" is little more than another religion all dressed up as a discipline at institutions of "higher" learning

And 99.9% of it is based on hindsight (the "digital age" is proving that quite well)

Sometimes some of them ("philosophies" or "schools") work for some, other times not so much

None have proven very durable, let alone universal and all subject to often unintended consequences without constant tinkering

I subscribe to common sense and simply observing the deals and trends going down around me

It's all about logistics

[Ed Kreamer]

In response I would say that free markets work better than anything else, no matter how reprehensible some business practices are. I rest my case.

[Wagner]

In response I would say that free markets work better than anything else, no matter how reprehensible some business practices are. I rest my case.

I thought I was agreeing with you................and I am, when they are truly "free" and not the result of government interference, manipulations and subsidies but rather conducted by the actual parties involved with the creation of the goods

Thomas

[hsosdrum]

The 2216nd actually comes form consumer, it is Jerry Moro's design.
As are those synthesis small monitors, too...

And when Charles Sprinkle designed the Image Control waveguide he was also part of JBL Consumer; he wisely moved over to JBL Pro soon thereafter (and they wisely snapped him up).