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Thread: Electronic Crossover for L300

  1. #16
    Member Alobar's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    An XSim shows that a 6uF capacitor followed by a 20R resistor ( wired across the 077 ) is very effective ( at leaving the response mostly untouched but still protected from DC ).


    Thanks very much, and a very Happy New Year as well!
    L200's biamped with 2216Nd1 LF, and 077's added

  2. #17
    Member Alobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    An XSim shows that a 6uF capacitor followed by a 20R resistor ( wired across the 077 ) is very effective ( at leaving the response mostly untouched but still protected from DC ).


    Earl, again thanks for your help! I got all the protection caps and the resistors in place as per your recommendations. Just wanted to say I have my system fully triamped and am just amazed how much better, more clear they sound now! The veil is lifted would be one way to describe.. This triamped mod has done every bit as much to the mids and HF as the 2216Nd1's did for the LF and MF. I am still dialing it in but am close to happy with it. There are only 5 PEQ slots (stereo) on each output of the MiniDSP 4x10HD and another 5 on the input side so that has forced me to keep editing existing ones instead of just adding more. I have got it somewhat flat down to 20hz now, with a 400-800hz dip (this has always been a stubborn area in my room) but for it just being a day or so since I started I think I can fix that.

    One thing I would like is some guidance about the crossover settings themselves, the slopes, crossover points etc. How to dial it in correctly. My current settings are:
    LF: High Pass 20hz cutoff LR 48db. Low pass cutoff 1150hz BW 24db.
    MF: High Pass 1200hz cutoff BW 24db. Low Pass 8500hz BW 18db
    HF (077) High pass cutoff 8500hz BW 36db.

    I moved the LE85 crossover point from 1150 to 1200 to ease a slight edgyness in that region which did the trick without losing anything. Also I have the 2216Nd1 running reversed polarity as they seem to dig just a little cleaner and deeper that way. The LE85 is straight polarity and the 077 may be reversed from before can't remember (hard wired) when I was running it passive on a 1uf cap and 8 ohm L pad which is now gone..

    Anyone who has any suggestions on further improvements or things to try I would be grateful.. Also I know running the 2216Nd1 to 1150 hz is quite a bit higher than what the 4367 xover point is, but it just sounds so good and seems to be able to deliver it just fine.

    Right now I just can't stop listening to these old speakers! Stayed up till midnight last night listening..
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    L200's biamped with 2216Nd1 LF, and 077's added

  3. #18
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Wow you are having fun.

    Glad you are getting a subjectively good result.

    On the crossover frequency there are a few technical ideas around what should work best but it’s sll about your ears. Let them be the judge.

    What you are juggling is the phase continuity between the woofer and the horn and matchup of the woofer dispersion with the horn.

    The better these two criteria are the better it will sound in the listening window not just dead on axis.

    If it’s out of whack when you move the listening position slightly the frequency response will turn ugly in the crossover region.

    You may be able to measure the real time displacement between the woofer and the horn and adjust this with the mini dsp. However the true test of phase tracking at the crossover point is when the phase is reversed there should be a uniform 20 dB notch you can measure on axis with the horn ie your listening height.

    The hl92 horn is about 300 mm deep plus 70 mm to the driver voice coil =370 mm.

    Less about 70 mm from woofer voice cool gives around 300 mm +- 25 mm physical
    displacement. The distance between the driver voice coils is only an approximate acoustic centre distance. If you simply try can get a smooth crossover point with everything in phase that won’t work subjectively. A wavelength at 1200 hertz is 286 mm. So with that wavelength you may find a 24 dB slope at 1200 hertz works. The actual electrical phase will depend on whether you have used delay on the woofer or not. These numbers are all an educated guess.

    As l said use the reverse polarity test and move the crossover point up or down until you get a nice notch. The level of both drivers should be closely match in the crossover region. So get the slopes as close as possible first with the overall levels before doing this test.
    It will sound really good after you flip the polarity back to normal.

    On the dispersion match the woofer is possibly a good match for the horn at 1200 hertz.

    But you can confirm this by measurement of the frequency for a -6 dB spl off axis at say 45 degrees off axis for both the woofer and the horn. That will in theory sound more like seemless crossover between the woofer and form.
    Of course the woofer has to like that frequency or it may sound like crap.

    With the slopes there is bit of ambiguity on what is what. The slope always refers to the combination of the drivers natural response and the addition of the crossover filter.

    For example if you programmed in 24 dB slope on the horn high pass filters at 1200 hertz the actual slope might actually be more than a 24 dB slope. If the mini Dsp can give you an Objective curve to adjust to that will help. The steeper the slope the less off bad behaviour you will get from the horn and woofer. If you can get an acoustic slope of 24 dB on both drivers stick with that. Otherwise consider 18 dB.

  4. #19
    Member Alobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Wow you are having fun.

    Glad you are getting a subjectively good result.

    On the crossover frequency there are a few technical ideas around what should work best but itís sll about your ears. Let them be the judge.

    What you are juggling is the phase continuity between the woofer and the horn and matchup of the woofer dispersion with the horn.

    The better these two criteria are the better it will sound in the listening window not just dead on axis.

    If itís out of whack when you move the listening position slightly the frequency response will turn ugly in the crossover region.

    You may be able to measure the real time displacement between the woofer and the horn and adjust this with the mini dsp. However the true test of phase tracking at the crossover point is when the phase is reversed there should be a uniform 20 dB notch you can measure on axis with the horn ie your listening height.

    The hl92 horn is about 300 mm deep plus 70 mm to the driver voice coil =370 mm.

    Less about 70 mm from woofer voice cool gives around 300 mm +- 25 mm physical
    displacement. The distance between the driver voice coils is only an approximate acoustic centre distance. If you simply try can get a smooth crossover point with everything in phase that wonít work subjectively. A wavelength at 1200 hertz is 286 mm. So with that wavelength you may find a 24 dB slope at 1200 hertz works. The actual electrical phase will depend on whether you have used delay on the woofer or not. These numbers are all an educated guess.

    As l said use the reverse polarity test and move the crossover point up or down until you get a nice notch. The level of both drivers should be closely match in the crossover region. So get the slopes as close as possible first with the overall levels before doing this test.
    It will sound really good after you flip the polarity back to normal.

    On the dispersion match the woofer is possibly a good match for the horn at 1200 hertz.

    But you can confirm this by measurement of the frequency for a -6 dB spl off axis at say 45 degrees off axis for both the woofer and the horn. That will in theory sound more like seemless crossover between the woofer and form.
    Of course the woofer has to like that frequency or it may sound like crap.

    With the slopes there is bit of ambiguity on what is what. The slope always refers to the combination of the drivers natural response and the addition of the crossover filter.

    For example if you programmed in 24 dB slope on the horn high pass filters at 1200 hertz the actual slope might actually be more than a 24 dB slope. If the mini Dsp can give you an Objective curve to adjust to that will help. The steeper the slope the less off bad behaviour you will get from the horn and woofer. If you can get an acoustic slope of 24 dB on both drivers stick with that. Otherwise consider 18 dB.
    Thanks Ian, your post makes sense and you have given me a lot to digest.. I'm probably going to work on it evenings for the next month or so, and will report back on my luck.. Meanwhile I think the sound is so much better now than before, if I stopped today I would be happy. Just want to get it as good as I can!
    L200's biamped with 2216Nd1 LF, and 077's added

  5. #20
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    I agree. Itís all relative.

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