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Thread: foilcals for 4345

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by remusr View Post
    Would not adding serial numbers be akin to counterfeiting? That seems a bridge too far for a replica. Otherwise you are entitled to your opinions. However I do not note a bunch of opportunists rushing to do what you describe so you may be unrealistic in your expectations. And why do you come across as so angry about this? Have you had a nasty experience here that I missed the telling of?
    Here we go again with the "angry" bull shit. Why is speaking the TRUTH nowadays (or simply sharing one's just as valid as anyone else's opinion) always associated with being "angry" today?
    Only thing missing here is the "did we forget to take our medications Wagner" smart remark that thankfully appears to have (finally!) fallen from pop culture favor. I thank you for leaving that one out!

    Are you (as in"anyone") in this for the love of the music that JBL can make? The beauty and collectability of JBL industrial design? Or the intersection of both? (all rhetorical to serve the point)

    We're parsing words now with something that is very obvious to me. Part of collecting old JBL transducers is that a lot of times, what make one example "MINT" (real expensive) and one example NOT mint (expensive, but not quite so painful) is going to be a missing cosmetic bit, be it a a label or whatever. This reality can and will have a tremendous impact on the selling price (but little to nothing to do with "value" when the transducer is viewed, and used, as a music making device.)


    Same as a bad lacquer finish on a fine old brass finished, yet beautifully playing lacquer finished trumpet

    has NOTHING to do with sound or functionality but everything to do with MONEY and how much the more fastidious collectors are willing to pay for an example

    Once a driver's in the box, you ain't even going see this part of the deal anyway, right? So why drop all of this sort of money on what amounts to the label in a T-shirt anyway? Unless something else is at play here and now we speak to and take a look at motive(s)


    As for serializing, I was speaking of applying the original number(s) found on the foilcal being replaced; sorry I didn't connect the dots for you.
    I was speaking to replacing damaged foilcals, not missing ones (or any other sort of misrepresentation)
    A BLANK foilcal could be interpreted as just as much a counterfeit as no foilcal at all now couldn't it?
    Just like those fake red plugs.

    And for what it's worth, ANY of his foilcals, numbered or not ARE counterfeits (a misrepresentation of the truth), so I fail to "see" your point. How does one know what was really on a LOT of JBL drivers if it's just plain missing altogether? Hum?

    And before you respond that leaving them blank is just exactly the opposite, the SELLER even suggests that you could/can have it done by a jeweler if you'd like, so it's not as if he's discouraging the practice (or doesn't know/is ignorant of what his primary market is all about; pumping up the value of cosmetically flawed collectible JBL pieces)
    Notice he doesn't make anything for any of the more common, contemporary (and plentiful on the used market) JBL stuff

    The whole thing is a deception to some extent and again, THAT'S YOUR BUSINESS/CONSCIENCE, but my point was, is and has always been about his PRICE GOUGING

    I admitted that under very specific and special circumstances I might consider using one of the repro badges myself; I hate to admit it but I have accidentally damaged a foilcal or two being careless during attempts to affect various repairs (I stupidly ruined two 130A badges by simply not putting a soft cloth on my lazy Susan)
    And in those cases I would KNOW the correct serial number to use to pull off the illusion
    To a certain degree, I am happy that they available, same as repros of old stickers for dressing up vintage cars' engine compartments....................it's the FACT that I KNOW that the MAJORITY of them are being used to make something that's it's NOT into something that it's CLAIMED to be

    The typical music lover, enjoying his Father's ancient JBLs isn't even aware of "red seals", nor does he give a shit let alone being on the hunt or in the market to spend $10 bucks a pop for a pair

    Calls the whole thing into question for the uninitiated/ non-aficionado/expert

    Manipulated cosmetic appearance can easily mislead anyone into confusing a "road hard and put up wet" example with a a time capsule virtually new example and except for personal use and satisfaction, that practice (we call it a "warm over" in the car trade) is a deception.

    No different than the coin dealers who use ultrasonic to up a coin's grade in my mind; the average guy is not going to catch it, but he will wind up paying for it unfortunately

    Just look at his "sold" numbers for those red plugs for example. There is no way in hell that that the "in it for the music" only members of the JBL community (who routinely replace worn out and bad diaphragms) were that concerned with having those things in place that they were willing to spend $20 bucks PLUS $3.95 in postage just to have them. Especially with the serious builder(s) contingent of the hobby. I just ain't buyin' it.

    And the fact that the "sign guy" IS a "gouger" taking advantage of this aspect of Human nature
    I really didn't intend for something this simple (obvious) to go on for this long, but I guess some people just don't get it
    Plus I have a problem with the fact that whether JBL "cares" or not (and you now what pal, they do despite what you may think), these are all licensed trademarks and images so he's "F'ing them over too (as well as the guys who have the REAL shit (time capsule examples and true NOS) for sale and can't get what an original (and rare) is truly worth thanks to the fakes (I'm sorry, "enhanced") does indeed tick me off
    But not "angry", just disappointed at how so many people can and are willing to play the scum bag used car salesman role
    All the pretty little stickers and red plugs don't do a damn thing to help with improving what was already the best, especially if it was ever abused, misused or damaged (OR started out in life as something else entirely)
    And THAT'S my point

    Just think about it

    Thomas

  2. #32
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Thomas,

    I would like to see more context in your posts so that anyone can ready your single post and see the bigger picture aside from your arguing the point.

    Ie most L100s on Ebay today are recycle from parts previously souls on EBay, hence the visibility of after market "flee market" traders selling foilcals. There's nothing authentic about any of it but buyer beware and thus is common knowledge from many of use who have been on the site for over 10 years.

    Therefore I don't see the point of your rants.

    The other side of it is reproductions of the JBL designs which is prolific by forum members and some outfits like Kendrick.

    What anyone does or does not do is there own business and there is no rule book as its about personal satisfaction of what's in your living room.

    "The Beauty of it all is, this is (still) America and he can do whatever the hell it is he wants, and charge the same as well."

    "But there's another part of that Beauty, My Opinion, and anyone who doesn't share it or like it? Tough shit".

    You did not need to post that as the tone of your posts is your Brand.

    You offered to repair the foilcals so why not leave at that.

    People don't have time to source suppliers for this type of item and EBay is a quick fix.

    Most of us don't need to be given an essay on an opinion so can your keep your posts short and to the point that way they are more likely to be in fact read and you will have more time to pursue other more meaningful things in life.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Thomas,

    I would like to see more context in your posts so that anyone can ready your single post and see the bigger picture aside from your arguing the point.

    Ie most L100s on Ebay today are recycle from parts previously souls on EBay, hence the visibility of after market "flee market" traders selling foilcals. There's nothing authentic about any of it but buyer beware and thus is common knowledge from many of use who have been on the site for over 10 years.

    Therefore I don't see the point of your rants.

    The other side of it is reproductions of the JBL designs which is prolific by forum members and some outfits like Kendrick.

    What anyone does or does not do is there own business and there is no rule book as its about personal satisfaction of what's in your living room.

    "The Beauty of it all is, this is (still) America and he can do whatever the hell it is he wants, and charge the same as well."

    "But there's another part of that Beauty, My Opinion, and anyone who doesn't share it or like it? Tough shit".

    You did not need to post that as the tone of your posts is your Brand.

    You offered to repair the foilcals so why not leave at that.

    People don't have time to source suppliers for this type of item and EBay is a quick fix.

    Most of us don't need to be given an essay on an opinion so can your keep your posts short and to the point that way they are more likely to be in fact read and you will have more time to pursue other more meaningful things in life.
    Guess it all went right over your head, huh?
    That failure is all mine, my apologies.
    That said, you may also wish trying a good dose of your own advice as well (and try actually listening to what another Human being is trying to say/convey whether you care for their personal style or not); you're not the only reader here of these pages.
    GOD did not put me here on this Earth to make Ian Mackenzie happy or to meet his high standards
    Thank you for your helpful observations, I will give them the appropriate consideration and advisement due

    You have a wonderful day,

    Thomas Wagner

  4. #34
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    OH, NOW I remember! (I save your "correspondence")
    You're the joker who PM'd me with threats and accused me of being somehow being a "racist" out for Black people?!

    Never a dull moment with you!
    Thanks for the laugh
    (You really should be careful with the words you use though in such a litigious age)

    Thomas

  5. #35
    Senior Member remusr's Avatar
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    Thomas, I am far from a PC dude. But this issue seems trivial. JBL will not supply a replacement. Party A spends their time and resources to create a pretty "accurate to original" foilcal (or a recone kit). Party A sells it for whatever price they care to. No buyer has to buy it. They can look for alternative sources or make it themselves. Or do without. This kind of thing happens all the time, all around us. Like gasoline here in Canada - world prices for crude went down 50-60% from mid-2014, and US pump prices followed suit(except California due to increased taxes). Crude went down more like 60-70% here in Alberta due to our transport differentials, but our gasoline pump prices only went down 10-20%. Oh well, s#%$ happens.

    My last comments were a bit of a sidetrack to the thread, following the comment about wanting a serial number as well. I'm no lawyer but would not adding a JBL-valid serial number to a foilcal or a recone kit that is not on the original unit be counterfeiting? Similar to a counterfeit VIN on a car. Putting your own sn on it, especially a personal one as Ian did, seems ok to me as it is not pretending to be from JBL. 'Nuff said.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by remusr View Post
    Putting your own sn on it, especially a personal one as Ian did, seems ok to me as it is not pretending to be from JBL. 'Nuff said.
    Yeah, you're right about that "homie" "'Nuff'" said

    Try reading my posts (versus skimming) if you find yourself compelled to find fault/debate/disagree with them (which is fine, debate is part of what this forum thing is all about and I take no offense; your feelings and remarks are as valid as mine or anyone else's) because in this particular case about a 1/2 or more of what you're saying doesn't even apply to my objections and comments. Possibly that's my fault for being such an ineffective communicator of my thoughts!

    Feels awfully familiar though (what Ben said/says)

    As for your comments on the price of crude versus gasoline versus how much of it represents confiscatory taxation at the pump? And the followup reconciliation/accepting cliche, "Oh well, sit happens" is exactly what I AM talking about and is a big part of a whole lot of problems, not just unethical sellers and flippers dealing in reproduction foilcals. This tolerance of, and just going along with bull shit "as long as it's not in MY backyard" or affecting me directly is why the world is in the big mess it's in right now
    And you've got to raise your voice in protest against it somewhere/sometime about SOMETHING

    But now I REALLY digress! But yes, I am in total agreement with you, there are more than enough unethical dirt bags, of ALL stripes, to go around and last us until the end of days, that's a fact!

    Take care friend

    Thomas

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam View Post
    Sadly, JBL's in such disarray they've not a chance - nor a care? - to keep their logos and TMs protected.

    I've waited for 8 weeks to get a biamp/DSP module for one of the VP line - a terrific line which has a lot of units out in use. We cannot get answers, let alone parts. JBL now says they're not sure they make the module anymore (even after giving an updated part no.), but they cannot find them, regardless. They offered B stock - I said great, I'll take three (since you're running out and I have eight units in constant rotation). But, they wouldn't ship. More weeks. Then, they report they are not sure they have them. Today, they O/N them without us even asking. And this experience it twice as bad as an identical one, last year...
    Is Dave in Pro Parts still working there?
    When faced with another JBL find, Good mech986 says , JBL Fan mech986 says

  8. #38
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    Take a look at the money that changes hands to hang a new sign on the front of any of the major or famous sports venues today
    BRANDING is where all of the money is today, now that we live in a nation that no longer manufactures shit...................
    Many times (and it is well documented) once GREAT, iconic companies fall into a state of disarray to the point that they barely resemble even a shadow of their former selves
    BUT, that (their) NAMES and all those REGISTERED trademarks are still as negotiable a security as silver or gold and they still sell boat loads (in today's case "shit" loads) of product thanks to enduring recognition:
    Advent
    KLH
    Philco
    Garrad
    Crosley
    Telefunken
    Fisher (well Sanyo pretty much used that one up by the early '90s, but you catch my drift)
    and on and on and on it goes..................you get my point

    I can flat ass out guarantee you that Jane (or at least one of her 5,000 attorneys on retainer) does indeed still give a care about those trademarks and logos, and protecting them (i.e.: making them revenue generators) whether she still holds any respect for them or not (or even if he ever did)

    Even if the actual company and it's legacy products are dead now and in the cold cold ground

    Grand old iconic high quality American names are solid gold for any and all chinese holding/distribution companies for sure and that's a fact

    That's almost all that's left of our once "engine of democracy" manufacturing prowess of consumer commodities, the name(s)

    Even those companies that are still viable in one area or another will license out or "spin off" their name (at a tremendous profit) for goods they no longer have any interest in; I often weep (literally) when I stroll the isles of a general goods store and see the pure SHIT emblazoned with the name "General Electric" on the package

    JBL cares about it's trademarks and logos, believe you me.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Thomas,

    Given your passion on the matter of the foilcals and apparent resourcefulness and articulation of how to do it "better" why not apply your talents to arranging a cost effective group buy much like those on Diyaudio.com.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Thomas,

    Given your passion on the matter of the foilcals and apparent resourcefulness and articulation of how to do it "better" why not apply your talents to arranging a cost effective group buy much like those on Diyaudio.com.
    Another incessant wise guy who cannot read
    But (stupidly), I'll play along anyway
    First, I have no troubles removing them intact, and in perfect condition, EVERY TIME (but it does require a modicum of common sense), so, I don't have that issue to deal with (destroying/deforming them beyond any practical use via stupidity)
    Secondly, if I do come into possession of a driver that's missing it's foilcal, then so be be it, it's not a problem for me (I don't stay awake at night worrying over it; like I said, can't see them anyway once they're in the box. The only people (really and unduly) freaked out over this would predominantly have to be FLIPPERS (in my humble opinion)
    It's just a part of the way that life goes; they all can't be perfect cosmetic specimens after 30, 40 or even 50 years....................

    and thirdly, as for doing it "better"? I already do/can (and better than paying $60 to &80 bucks a POP for a simple two or three color print layout with only the slightest of texture changes); the solution is called a high resolution printer + a bit of careful lamination to a sheet of readily available aluminum sheet stock (and even the aluminum isn't necessary, unless you DO want the die stamped numbers for authenticity's sake)
    Works well for the missing/damaged cabinet labels too. The only challenge is at times it is moderately difficult to find a stock image from which to work

    I'd have no problems with the money he charges if we were talking the early, heavy badge type pieces, usually attached to the back of the cabs; that would require either a 3-D printer or actual casting; now THAT would be an entirely different conversation of which I would have an entirely different view

    The "subject" (my "problem" or "passion" as you put it) is that the "sign--shop" guy is a rip off artist, a gouger, plain and simple and I don't feel the need to explain things any further to "prove" or validate my position.

    Understand now? Or is here some hidden racist agenda in those simple statements of fact?

    The only justification for his ridiculous pricing (return on investment) is if he's using antiquated, outdated methodology (1960s, 70s or even 80s equipment and methods) to make his wares then that would make a little bit of sense (because it would be very labor intensive to do so) Still doesn't make it right and it still doesn't give me reason to be stupid enough to pay someone doing something so simple using "old world" techniques. This is a case of which the "old world" charm holds little,value to me. Now if we were talking high end/high quality men's leather shoes or wood work then maybe we could talk! That, or single malt Scotch and cigars.

    And just curious, he some kin of yours or something or are you the "sign--shop" guy"?

  11. #41
    Senior Member tjm001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    the solution is called a high resolution printer + a bit of careful lamination to a sheet of readily available aluminum sheet stock (and even the aluminum isn't necessary, unless you DO want the die stamped numbers for authenticity's sake)
    That's exactly what I am doing for my L300-type DIYs! No fake serial numbers though. Well, I made them so maybe serial number 1 and 2.

    Tom

  12. #42
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ilcal-a-phobia

    The above link is most interesting and informative.

    Thomas my wish to review this thread.

    I was unable to locate another shop that is supplying the finished item. I have sub optimal vision these days and would like to commission "Thomas" to kindly supply me a pair of the 4345 foilcals and the grill plates.

    My only expectation is that you can do the job for less that the ebay offer you have posted .

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ilcal-a-phobia

    The above link is most interesting and informative.

    Thomas my wish to review this thread.

    I was unable to locate another shop that is supplying the finished item. I have sub optimal vision these days and would like to commission "Thomas" to kindly supply me a pair of the 4345 foilcals and the grill plates.

    My only expectation is that you can do the job for less that the ebay offer you have posted .
    Sounds like you've got a personal problem to me. This part of some passive aggressive thing you've got going or just another tack at trying to be a funny guy?

    After your ridiculous "racist' comments and PM, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire
    But now you've lost me; I thought I understood you to feel that the "sign--shop" guy's prices were reasonable?
    Now I am really confused?

    But this has to be my mostest favoritest part of t all:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    I was unable to locate another shop that is supplying the finished item. I have sub optimal vision these days and would like to commission "Thomas" to kindly supply me a pair of the 4345 foilcals and the grill plates.

    My only expectation is that you can do the job for less that the ebay offer you have posted .
    Gee whiz, your ONLY expectation? Besides a better price? What girl could turn down such a lovely, irresistible offer as that?

    You really are a charmer. Give "Staples" FedEx Kinko's" or "Office Depot"a call; they should both have hi -rez printers in all their shops by now as well as the very best of staff.

    I'm lucky, I live right down the road from Silicon Valley so we's gots lots of those fancy type printers just 'bout everywhere, all over the doggone place! Lots 'o them fancy eelectronic gadget shops too!

    Don't be knowin' all that much about that thar "The Tardis" place you be stayin'

    Good luck there big guy

  14. #44
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Actually members on this forum often help each other.

    In the past week l have corresponded on tuning the 4343 to fellow forum member do he could gain maximum enjoyment.

    The simple reality is your unfortuate demeanor indicates are not the sort of person who is welcome on the Lansing Forums.

    I doubt you will be around for much longer.

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