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Thread: JBL 4367 first listen

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    4313B reported that GT stated that if he had to do it again he would probably use a single 15" instead of the 15"+12" arrangement.
    So nowadays he would probably use a 2216nd (or 2216nd-1 if done with a passive filter).
    As he also unplugged the 045Be this would result in a two way.
    He reiterated this once again on January 2nd, 2016. The horn is to be mounted vertical above the low frequency transducer, free from any enclosure edges. The 1400 Array is an example.

  2. #77
    Member joeinid's Avatar
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    Bump for any updates!

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    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    He reiterated this once again on January 2nd, 2016. The horn is to be mounted vertical above the low frequency transducer, free from any enclosure edges. The 1400 Array is an example.
    Hi 4313B,

    Why not combination such as:18"+12".
    As You have mentioned, such horn type (as 1400 Array), owing to the diffraction slot in the horn throat, better horizontal dispersion can be get.

    regards
    ivica

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    I'm Back! (if only for a moment)

    Congratulations to those who have received their 4367's. There are a ton of misconceptions regarding the speakers. i can comment through the DV run after which I was no longer involved. The speaker is essentially similar to a 4365 in overall sound performance. There are some voicing differences partially due to my desires and partially as a result of the hardware used. The 2216Nd has the low TCR wire and is very kicky and dynamic as a result. The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2) and has an increased amount of 2nd harmonic distortion between 750 Hz and 1500 Hz as a result. It is not horrible, but it is about 10 dB higher than the 476Mg in that range and up to 20 dB higher than the 476Be over the same octave. The increased second comes from the 2430 being a ring radiator with no suspension. It is just difficult for it to move below 1500 Hz. The Mg diaphragm is twice as thick as the Be diaphragm so it resists motion in that range to a degree. The Be has the most freedom to move in the octave at and above crossover so it is the best of the three in that regard. With that said, the 2430 has a very detailed and musical sound and is a fine driver. It is capable of much higher output levels than any of the 476 family and is therefore well suited to Sound Reinforcement and Studio use. There is no silver bullet. With good things come bad things and one has to look at the total set of compromises. The 2430 is also about 1/3 the cost of the 476 precious metal drivers.

    The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.

    The system has very nice imaging but it cannot touch any Array in that area because the horn orientation is the wrong direction and the horn is in a wide boxy enclosure. The M2 does better in this regard because the horn is symmetrical in pattern and designed to have a significantly wider coverage pattern. That just can't be done in such a compact horn as those in the 4367 and 4365. BTW, those two horns behave very similarly with neither having a major edge on the other in measured performance. They are not, however interchangeable physically and would require different EQ.

    Also keep in mind that the M2 is full active. It has separate amplifiers, electronic and digital crossovers and a lot of EQ bands. All kinds of things large and small can be fixed with that kind of horsepower. The pure passive systems can only have a little shaping and perhaps a few low Q correction filters. In spite of that, there is often a musicality to passive systems that purely electronic ones just can't match.

    With regards to charge coupling, the voltage needed to bias the cap pair is pulled from the input through a large resistor (to limit current) and a low leakage diode. The caps in the system are of very high quality so they retain the charge for a while. The beauty of this system not only eliminates the need for the battery and housing/mounting mechanisms but it tracks the signal level. At low levels, very little bias is necessary to do the job so things are fine. At really high levels, much more bias is necessary but the generation level goes up so things are fine. With a fixed battery voltage, it is possible to run out of bias at high levels. The diode method is a good improvement and in my opinion, sounds better than battery biasing. So suffer through the first 1 or 2 seconds of your first playing and then forget about it.

    The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz. They do have a "live music" sound that is most difficult to achieve purely with direct radiators. If you are looking for an Audiophile loudspeaker with 3-dimensional imaging, a warm mellow midrange and no dynamics at all, look elsewhere. Without using the words Distilled Water you might look at another Harman brand if you are seeking elegant, luscious elevator music.

    I used some concrete blocks to elevate the 4367's when I did Demo's at the factory. 6" to 8" height really helps. The systems are too short for typical American use. The trick is to get something that doesn't rock or tip. You will eat the bass kick immediately if any enclosure movement is allowed. The woofer kicks really hard and if any energy is consumed moving (rocking) the enclosure due to it not being properly coupled to the floor, you will lose bass kick and impact. The proper use and need for spikes (or equivalent) is not BS. It is based in sound theory and is easily demonstrable.
    Last edited by gtimbers; 02-09-2016 at 08:14 PM. Reason: I forgot something

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Thanks for the peak behind the curtain.... very interesting post!


    Widget

  6. #81
    Senior Member Mctwins's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info, Greg.

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    2430 Needs To Be Used An Octave Below Where It Is Happy

    "The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2)." In general, shouldn't a HF driver be crossed-over an octave above where it is happy? Why does the 2430 need to be used an octave lower?

  8. #83
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retroman View Post
    "The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2)." In general, shouldn't a HF driver be crossed-over an octave above where it is happy? Why does the 2430 need to be used an octave lower?
    As GT has discussed there are compromises in using the 2430 ie an increase in 2nd harmonic distortion compared to the precious metal drivers but the 2430 is 1/3 the cost. If it was used as you point out ie 3000 Hz this would be a significant compromise on the 2216 from 750-1500 Hz. GT compares the 2nd harmonic distortion in other drivers and ithe 2430 is not shocking and it goes much louder.

    If you have listened to 2nd harmonic distortion at these frequencies it's not objectionable like odd harminic distortion.

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    As Ian correctly stated, everything involves compromises. The 2430 has a distortion issue between 750 Hz and 1500 Hz compared to the 476 family. It does many other things extremely well including a significantly lower cost. The crossovers for systems using a 15" LF driver need to be no higher than 850 - 900 Hz or there will be other major issues. The M2 is around 700 Hz and the 4367 is 800 ish as I remember. This allows for good blending between the drivers, uniform power response, at least horizontally and stays out of the area in which the woofer response and distortion eats it. A bit more 2nd harmonic distortion is what this costs when using the 2430 driver.

    As several listeners have noted, the 4367 sounds like a single transducer with essentially no trace of a crossover. If there were a major problem with the 2430, this wouldn't be possible. One of my trademarks was designing systems that sound blended, without that multiple transducer sound. They are not perfect in all ways, but I usually get that one characteristic right. That is probably the most difficult aspect of a large format 2-way system. The cool thing about a 2-way is that there is only 1 crossover point. Crossovers suck in general and the fewer and further between, the better. While it is easy to get a more uniform sound power curve with a multi-way direct radiator system, having 3 crossover points can cause some significant problems also. I had very good success with the 250 family and the Performance series, both dynamically and from a blending standpoint, but they were really difficult to do. Most 4-way direct radiator systems have a multi-transducer sound, to my ear, and are often rather lacking in dynamics.

  10. #85
    Senior Member LowPhreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtimbers View Post
    ...The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.

    The system has very nice imaging but it cannot touch any Array in that area because the horn orientation is the wrong direction and the horn is in a wide boxy enclosure. ...
    Interesting to read about this model and the 4365 as I'm always curious about what's out there. Much appreciated, Greg!

    A dozen years ago the 1400 Array or 4367 price range would have been right in my wheelhouse. However, these days I've opted for the Studio 590. I've found that it too likes a boost in the 30 Hz range of about 6dB in my room (with good placement, i.e. plenty of space from the rear & side walls) where the woofers have no problem with the added low end. The imaging/dispersion is similar to designs like the Array, having vertical orientation and a bi-radial horn. I can also say that spike feet improve things vs. no spikes, making sure that the cabs are plumb (all 4 spikes having equal contact, no 'wobble').

    Not trying to take the thread off-topic but it might be useful to Studio 500 series owners if Greg would kindly expand a bit on their design as well, or I could start a new thread.

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    Other than being a face only a Mother could love, the Studio series is really great sounding stuff. The little compression driver is amazing and Jerry Moro did a great job on the woofers. We had them made in China, but the supplier implemented Jerry's design. We had a jerk for an Industrial Designer at the time and his taste was all in his mouth. I did what I could to salvage the acoustics of the design and fortunately, they work as well as stuff costing 2 or 3 times the money. The fit and finish isn't so great but buy them for the sound. They use really good components so they should last a very long time.

  12. #87
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    Thank you for these great posts Greg!

    the 2430 is 1/3 the cost
    Just for grins I had to see what the current disposition of these compression drivers was and I was surprised.
    The D2430K is currently ~ 0.209 the cost of the 476Mg.
    The 476Mg has gone up ~ 30% since the last time I checked its price about four months ago when I wanted to buy a single for a center channel (was NLA, I guess Harman found some since then). It was at the previous price since its first availability many years ago so this is the first price increase.

    The trick is to get something that doesn't rock or tip.
    I am currently using these until I rebuild the enclosures with the horns vertical. Those cork 130A gaskets are not glued onto the frames of the 1501AL-2's. I never could get a pair of the metal trim rings, don't care anymore either. +6 dB boost at 28 Hz (Fb) tapering to flat at 140 Hz. Everything I could ever want for superb low frequency response. These are so good I am completely unmotivated to play around with my 2216Nd's and M2 waveguides. Maybe in a couple years.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtimbers View Post
    Other than being a face only a Mother could love
    A mother.... or an imaginative teenage boy.

    Just sayin'.

  14. #89
    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    Thank you for these great posts Greg!

    Just for grins I had to see what the current disposition of these compression drivers was and I was surprised.
    The D2430K is currently ~ 0.209 the cost of the 476Mg.
    The 476Mg has gone up ~ 30% since the last time I checked its price about four months ago when I wanted to buy a single for a center channel (was NLA, I guess Harman found some since then). It was at the previous price since its first availability many years ago so this is the first price increase.

    I am currently using these until I rebuild the enclosures with the horns vertical. Those cork 130A gaskets are not glued onto the frames of the 1501AL-2's. I never could get a pair of the metal trim rings, don't care anymore either. +6 dB boost at 28 Hz (Fb) tapering to flat at 140 Hz. Everything I could ever want for superb low frequency response. These are so good I am completely unmotivated to play around with my 2216Nd's and M2 waveguides. Maybe in a couple years.

    Those are really nice B!! Great job!! I am sure they sound fantastic. Are you using the 476 Mg or Be on them? I am sure there is a post somewhere around here with the info but I don't remember.

    I really liked the 1200Fe under the vertical horn that Greg made at TD's house.

    Thanks for stopin by with all of the great information Greg!

    Shane
    Always fun learning more.......

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    Just Got my 4367's in Black finish Greg.

    Have not had time to rig them up yet but I am looking forward to it. Nice touch that you can purchase them in two finishes (Walnut or Black).

    The X Wave Horn lens with the Black finish does look like the (DARK SIDE)....

    Thanks for the posts, Hope all is well. Hopefully you will be back on the forum for many more moments.

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