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Thread: JBL 4367 first listen

  1. #46
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    Joe: We sell and stock...
    Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed report. I have also had the privilege of spending extensive time with many of these speakers... not the 4367s, but many of these and my opinions are quite in line with yours.


    Widget

  2. #47
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    Hi John,

    I agree with you observation of the live sound of the JBL.

    In my own experience l have found the glare of many solid state amps a contributing factor less than optimal musical pleasure.

    Pairing with a warmer but transparent amp in the highs like the Pass Aleph is a marriage in heaven for the like of our fellow 4343 owners in Japan. The Aleph is not noted for dynamics but the SE character seems to compensation for the liveness and you end up with a sweet presentation.

    The live nature of the blue baffle series is un mistakable even if more refined in more contemporary models.

  3. #48
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    Ian, we used to be a Pass dealer and I agree the Aleph stuff would be a good choice for mid and top end listen-ability although not the ultimate in bass control or dynamics as you point out. Tubes can work great on JBL's although not as practical as the solid state Aleph. We have a customer who is pairing up an ARC REF-75 with a pair of Array 1000's and one could listen all night to his system without fatigue. I am getting good results with both new McIntosh as well as a stock late 70's MAC MC-2125 (120 wpc).

    Widget, it's good to have some of my observations verified by another experienced listener.

    Joe: The Magico S3 was the first of the S models to have a special mid range chamber providing lower distortion than the chamber the more expensive but slightly earlier to market S5 had.
    Now the S5 has been updated to the S5mk2. I have not seen all the stats on the S5 mk2 but it is my understanding Magico was planning to use the S3 chamber in it. The S1 has also been updated to mk2 statues. Presumably eventually the S3 will also go mk2 even though it already has the chamber, but no mention of this has come from Magico yet. I agree the Magico's are very accurate and uncolored. System matching is extra key to give them some "soul" and make them inviting to listen to. I still prefer the Salon2 over the S3. It has better bottom end and I never hear them sound sterile like the Magico's can with the wrong gear on them. The S5 has enough better bass and dynamics over the S3 that it is my choice of the Magico models with out getting into the extreme expense of the Q series. The JBL sound can be addictive. With EQ, room treatment, room positioning and amplifier choices there are plenty of work-arounds for some of the minor colorations they can have.

  4. #49
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    I sincerely appreciate everyone's input here. I know we go off topic a little but it eventually comes back around so I apologize in advance for my off topic diversions.

    John: Regarding the Magico updates, I believe the new mk 2 series also have some drivers and/or technology from the S7. I think the upgrades are or will be significant.

    I am leaning back towards the 4367, just for the fun/live factor alone. I guess a consumer M2 implementation.

    Everyone, please keep the 4367 observations coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    Ian, we used to be a Pass dealer and I agree the Aleph stuff would be a good choice for mid and top end listen-ability although not the ultimate in bass control or dynamics as you point out. Tubes can work great on JBL's although not as practical as the solid state Aleph. We have a customer who is pairing up an ARC REF-75 with a pair of Array 1000's and one could listen all night to his system without fatigue. I am getting good results with both new McIntosh as well as a stock late 70's MAC MC-2125 (120 wpc).

    Widget, it's good to have some of my observations verified by another experienced listener.

    Joe: The Magico S3 was the first of the S models to have a special mid range chamber providing lower distortion than the chamber the more expensive but slightly earlier to market S5 had.
    Now the S5 has been updated to the S5mk2. I have not seen all the stats on the S5 mk2 but it is my understanding Magico was planning to use the S3 chamber in it. The S1 has also been updated to mk2 statues. Presumably eventually the S3 will also go mk2 even though it already has the chamber, but no mention of this has come from Magico yet. I agree the Magico's are very accurate and uncolored. System matching is extra key to give them some "soul" and make them inviting to listen to. I still prefer the Salon2 over the S3. It has better bottom end and I never hear them sound sterile like the Magico's can with the wrong gear on them. The S5 has enough better bass and dynamics over the S3 that it is my choice of the Magico models with out getting into the extreme expense of the Q series. The JBL sound can be addictive. With EQ, room treatment, room positioning and amplifier choices there are plenty of work-arounds for some of the minor colorations they can have.

  5. #50
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    Real World power requirement for the JBL 4367 ? ....

    Sensitivity 1W @ 1m:
    94dB

    Nominal Impedance:
    6 Ohms


    Any ideas of the minimum realistic power requirements for these speakers? I'd like to think tubes first, solid state I am sure I can figure that out.

  6. #51
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    Joe:

    McIntosh amplifier meters (any impedance 2-4-8-16 ohms) give pretty useful information especially with their peak hold function.

    On the 4367 5 watts per channel even on peaks is what I would call a typical demo listening level (at 10-12 feet around 95db peaks and average volumes of around 80-85db depending on the peak to average ratio of your source). 50 wpc on peaks (10db louder) is rocking pretty good. Quite loud but not painfully so, and you are really starting to feel the music at these levels. I play in a rock band and would not want to listen any louder than this for very long. An honest 50-75 wpc tube amp should give you all the clipping free power you need for these levels and allow you to exploit the 4367's excellent dynamics. Since clipping on solid state is more harsh, I would probably double this number just to be on the safe side. If you want disco/party levels than 300-400 wpc is in order although I don't think anyone could stand these spl levels for long. Obviously hearing damage becomes an issue.

    Nelson Pass put out an article demonstrating how loud his 10 wpc First Watt amplifier would play with a 95db sensitive Tannoy speaker. He used an oscilloscope to show the peak voltage remaining under the 1 watt envelope for a 95db spl playback. I don't have the link but it is probably on the First Watt website.
    Last edited by jpw; 12-20-2015 at 08:47 PM. Reason: additional thought

  7. #52
    Member joeinid's Avatar
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    Hi John,

    This is perfect. Thank you once again. I don't play very loud and only occasionally turn it up a little. Your figures are in line with what I was hoping to see. I think the 4367's could be a wonderful counterpoint to my Strads.

    Joe


    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    Joe:

    McIntosh amplifier meters (any impedance 2-4-8-16 ohms) give pretty useful information especially with their peak hold function.

    On the 4367 5 watts per channel even on peaks is what I would call a typical demo listening level (at 10-12 feet around 95db peaks and average volumes of around 80-85db depending on the peak to average ratio of your source). 50 wpc on peaks (10db louder) is rocking pretty good. Quite loud but not painfully so, and you are really starting to feel the music at these levels. I play in a rock band and would not want to listen any louder than this for very long. An honest 50-75 wpc tube amp should give you all the clipping free power you need for these levels and allow you to exploit the 4367's excellent dynamics. Since clipping on solid state is more harsh, I would probably double this number just to be on the safe side. If you want disco/party levels than 300-400 wpc is in order although I don't think anyone could stand these spl levels for long. Obviously hearing damage becomes an issue.

    Nelson Pass put out an article demonstrating how loud his 10 wpc First Watt amplifier would play with a 95db sensitive Tannoy speaker. He used an oscilloscope to show the peak voltage remaining under the 1 watt envelope for a 95db spl playback. I don't have the link but it is probably on the First Watt website.

  8. #53
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    Joe: I did not realize you were keeping your Strads and adding another speaker. I was worried that trading the Strads for the JBL's would be to big of a change for you. Owning both speakers would be ideal for you.

  9. #54
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    Hi John,

    I guess I did not make that clear. I have more than enough gear to add another pair of speakers and I absolutely love my Strads too much to give them up. I guess you'd be thinking why add another speaker then? I've almost always had multiple speakers for different flavors. I have another room that I'd like to set up the 4367's in or speakers like them.

    Thanks again!



    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    Joe: I did not realize you were keeping your Strads and adding another speaker. I was worried that trading the Strads for the JBL's would be to big of a change for you. Owning both speakers would be ideal for you.

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    Joe: I have always had the same desires for multiple systems to the point where I started an audio store! I have ProAc's in a living room, Everest's in the man cave, and the 4367's will end up in my vacation cabin in Colorado replacing my circa 2002 homemade JBL triamped speakers* which will move to my garage. The NHT Super Zero's, NHT sub and old Onkyo TX-8511 receiver currently in the garage will move to my basement.

    *Unfinished 5 cubic foot vented box for 15 inch 2226H woofer, 2344a biradial horn with 2426H midrange compression driver and 2404H treble compression driver/horn. I drive them with a 6 channel JBL AVA7 (made by Lexicon 120 wpc) and a Marchand 3 way crossover. Not the lowest coloration but reasonably well balanced, dynamically fun and play as loud as you can stand it from 40hz-16khz.

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    I know these...

    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    Joe: I have always had the same desires for multiple systems to the point where I started an audio store! I have ProAc's in a living room, Everest's in the man cave, and the 4367's will end up in my vacation cabin in Colorado replacing my circa 2002 homemade JBL triamped speakers* which will move to my garage. The NHT Super Zero's, NHT sub and old Onkyo TX-8511 receiver currently in the garage will move to my basement.

    *Unfinished 5 cubic foot vented box for 15 inch 2226H woofer, 2344a biradial horn with 2426H midrange compression driver and 2404H treble compression driver/horn. I drive them with a 6 channel JBL AVA7 (made by Lexicon 120 wpc) and a Marchand 3 way crossover. Not the lowest coloration but reasonably well balanced, dynamically fun and play as loud as you can stand it from 40hz-16khz.
    ahhh, the infamous "Butt Cracks"

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    Where are the 4367s built? I tried blowing up the pictures posted by jpw, but I couldn't quite make it out. Mexico maybe?

  13. #58
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    Mexico is my guess too as North America was closed down back in 2010 I believe. I will look for country of manufacturer labels next week and report back.........

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    *Unfinished 5 cubic foot vented box for 15 inch 2226H woofer, 2344a biradial horn with 2426H midrange compression driver and 2404H treble compression driver/horn. I drive them with a 6 channel JBL AVA7 (made by Lexicon 120 wpc) and a Marchand 3 way crossover. Not the lowest coloration but reasonably well balanced, dynamically fun and play as loud as you can stand it from 40hz-16khz.
    @JPW Do you have a constant directivity compensation in the Marchand crossover? Reason I am asking is that I have considered Marchand a few times instead of my modded M553, but I don't think it has this CD compensation feature which is what is needed for the 2344 horn. Or do you have passaive compensation?

    Sorry to go off topic :-)

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    Frank23: The system is all electronic low level crossovers, no passive parts. It's been 13 years since I did the prototype work initially using a Pass Labs XVR-1 crossover so unfortunately I don't remember the specifics. I only had the ability to measure basic on axis frequency response curves with a 1/3 octave Audio Control analyzer. I could not justify the cost of the XVR-1 in this system so I decided to go with the Marchand and have Phil build me crossover cards. The first cards did not match the response I got with the XVR-1 even though the slopes and frequencies I gave Marchand were the same. So I had Pass Labs talk directly with Marchand about what to build. The second set of cards got reasonably close. As I recall Q was a factor in why the first cards were off.

    The problem with the system is that the 2226H 15" woofer really does not sound that good used above a few hundred hertz in a hifi system. I would have been better off with a lower efficiency but more linear into the mid range 15 inch JBL 136 or 2231. The 2226H's response becomes increasingly erratic as the frequency rises and has a significant peak around 400hz. This made it a challenge to mate with the 2344a. I think I ended up crossing over around 900hz but with asymmetrical high and low pass networks. On the other hand the 2344A mates very well to the 2405H going on up the spectrum. The big problem was/is between 300hz and 500hz which EQ helps but does not totally solve. They were my first effort at a DIY speaker. I know I could make them a lot better today if I started over......

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