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Thread: JBL 4367 first listen

  1. #31
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    Widget, I agree that the wood veneer has a slight synthetic or manufactured look like S4700's or 4365's. It still looks good but not as dimensional and real as, well, real veneer.
    You are also right that some other speaker vendors offer a more luxurious finish in this price range. On the other hand, I suspect that JBL has significantly more parts cost in their drivers and horn assembly than other speakers here. As you know pro driver quality woofers and compression drivers are not cheap. If for the money I can't have both the luxury finish and the better drivers and resultant sound, I will take the better sound. Still an upgrade to the finish would be nice. I sometimes wonder if the more high end cabinet finishes of the past were a victim of JBL not being made in the US anymore. Alternatively perhaps one could argue that higher manufacturing costs in the US would mandate an even cheaper finish for same selling price if everything else is left the same.
    I guess it comes down to cost and what kind of manufacturing capability they have now versus prior.

    Ian and pos: I will continue to try different positions/height in the problem room as well as experimenting with placement in some smaller rooms. I suspect your "banana curve" hypothesis might have some validity. My engineering credentials are pretty thin, but I think that some level of low frequency boundary reinforcement was assumed in their design to augment flat response to 40hz and below. You would get more of this in small or medium rooms where one can not get far from a wall when listening. In the 24 x 22 room I tried a wild listening position with the couch about 4 feet from the back wall and the speakers pulled WAY into the room to maintain about a 12-13 foot listening distance from the baffle board. This sounded very promising with almost powered subwoofer like bottom end. I did not get a chance to measure though. Unfortunately it was a totally impractical layout to leave this way but it sure was fun to listen to.

  2. #32
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Cool

    Widget made mention of a finish having a manufactured appearance that is off-putting. I am familiar with reconstituted wood veneer that fits that description though its hard (for me) to confirm this is what is on these 4367s. Reconstituted wood is actually layers of thin sheets of an abundant species that are glued and then pressed together. The wood can be died to mimic a particular species. That may well be what JBL used for your cabinets. The cost of the product (based upon my casual shopping for veneers over the past year) is not much less on a retail basis than veneer of the most common species (oak, walnut, beech, etc). It may be that because of its uniformity and lack of defects that it costs less in terms of waste and man-hours in the production process.

    We may all agree that it lacks the appeal and distinction of some flat cut veneer hardwoods. Still it is wood, it is far more sustainable and it might get JBL California carbon offsets . Who knows, it may also be a look into the future when we are told we can't buy natural wood lumber anymore.
    David F
    San Jose

  3. #33
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    jpw, the 72 cm figure was not random, try it and you might be surprised

  4. #34
    Senior Member audiomagnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    jpw, the 72 cm figure was not random, try it and you might be surprised
    I would try a variety of heights. That veneer reminds me of the stuff they used on the L100t.

  5. #35
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    Thanks pos. I see the math in 72 cm which = quarter wave of 120hz.

  6. #36
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Yes, and this is the second vertical mode of your room with its 9.5 ft ceiling
    When placed at 1/4 of that dimension (72 cm) the woofer will be in a pressure null and will not energize that vertical mode.

  7. #37
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    my room

    jpw, maybe we should try these in my "very flat" room. Just saying, I would buy the beer

    gbe

  8. #38
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    Vjunction: I see your are next door. Maybe you can come by the store (Audio Video Logic in Urbandale) to hear the speakers after work and I will buy the beer. I think you will be impressed.
    I'm gone until the 29th of December but then back again until mid January. I travel a fair amount back and forth to Colorado.

    POS: A suspended ceiling does not function very well as a solid boundary to low frequencies so I doubt it is effecting the bass much, but maybe it does some. Thanks for pointing this out.
    I have not found a convenient way to get them to 72 cm's off the ground yet but I have moved them to the dimensions of 4.5 feet (half wave and cancellation of 125hz) out from both back and side walls. This means listening a long ways away with a very wide stereo stance (I happen to like this arrangement) and yields an obviously improved response that I have not had a chance to measure yet. Deep bass is up and 125hz area is clearly down. Bass octave to octave balance is now becoming acceptable even in this room. It is not a terribly practical listening arrangement because of the need to use the same room for other speaker demo's. Going to 72 cm's may be the final tweak needed.

  9. #39
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    As a matter of interest , given that you run an emporium , do you have other speakers in the same environment ? Do you have shorting leads to kill sympathetic resonances in the other speakers ?
    ( Maggies excluded )

  10. #40
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    macaroonie: No we don't short them. ALL THE HUNDREDS OF SPEAKERS that have been available for comparison over the 25 years we have been in business have been demonstrated under the same conditions, with other speakers in the room. So while this certainly causes interactions and effects the outcome of listening and measurements to some degree, in my opinion it can not be used as a reason to explain the strangely uneven bass response we initially experienced with the 4367.

    Also in the room referred to, 9 out of 10 or more speakers sound and measure best within a foot of the same place in the room, a place determined by years of experimenting and measuring. We have found over time that the 1 out of 10 that don't work in this vicinity are usually confirmed over time by us and others to in fact have linearity problems in the bass.

    However the white papers furnished by 4313 from JBL dispel any doubts about their technical accuracy. Am I or you to believe that my demo room is the better test for accuracy compared to JBL's world class speaker design center? I think not! So what we have is an anomaly, and it is not the first one.

    The level of help offered by various forum members to help me get the right bottom end out of the 4367 has been both surprising and useful. However too much may be being made of my initial post regarding the bass hump I reported, and if so it's my own fault. Although I have had to resort to unconventional placement in this one room to get deep smooth bass response, I must say they are sensational when the sweet spot is approached. This speaker is closer in performance and effect to the DD67000 Everest than it is to a 1400 Array. I will post new measurements for this position when I get a chance later this month.

  11. #41
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpw View Post
    POS: A suspended ceiling does not function very well as a solid boundary to low frequencies so I doubt it is effecting the bass much, but maybe it does some. Thanks for pointing this out.
    It is probably solid enough to reflect a big part of that 120Hz wave. Your measurement seems to show a low Q resonance.

  12. #42
    Member joeinid's Avatar
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    Just curious. For those who are familiar with Revel Studio2/Salon2, can you compare those to the sound of JBL 4367? I know it's a different speaker but unless I can hear the 4367, a pair on Salon2 might be in my future.

  13. #43
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    pos, I am not discounting your theory to the point of not trying it. I will give your 72 cm height risers a go when I can cobble something together and get back to you with my findings. All I am saying is that bass, and even lower mid-range, passes back and forth very easily from adjacent rooms with thick walls but suspended ceilings. We ended up using several feet of insulation on top of the ceiling panels to kill the crosstalk. Perhaps the insulation factors into things as well.

  14. #44
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    Joe: We sell and stock both Revel Salon2 and Studio2 and have had them side by side in the same room with the 4367's. I'm sure you realize that these are my opinions below and don't represent any audio absolute.

    First of all, I consider the Salon a far better speaker than the Studio provided one has at least a 500 wpc amplifier into 4 ohms to drive them with. If you have the right amp already, the bass extension, scale of sound stage and freedom from distortion is obviously a big step up. The Studio sounds like a slightly lower to the ground Salon with a high pass filter at 40hz. It's not that I don't like the Studio, it's very good for the money, but if you can afford the difference the Salon is just exceptional. It overall outperforms the similar retail priced B&W 800 Diamond and the Magico S3 that we also stock, and for considerably less actual money spent. Still if money is tight, we have a like new demo pair of Studio 2's we would let go for roughly the price of used.

    I would describe the Salon as a terrific effort aimed at what I would describe as the now mainstream TAS, Stereophile audiophile market. Very uncolored over the whole range, very linear deep bass all the way up to the mid-range with no sense of a ported sound. Terrific imaging (in that it disappears very well), excellent treble extension and detail, yet a smooth and non-fatiguing luxury presentation. Is this speaker perfect? Not even close.

    Do you want the sports car (always exciting but sometimes rough) or luxury car (rarely offensive but never very exciting) ride? There are engineering compromises here just like in audio so neither can be thought of as absolutely right or wrong.

    The JBL 4367 is everything the Salon (and most other TAS/Stereophile audiophile speakers) are not. With good uncompressed recordings the best way to describe the JBL's is that they sound live, limited only by the dynamic range of the recording and your electronics. I mean live like standing next to somebody playing drums. Over 40 years of selling high end audio I have noticed that many people can interpret a very dynamic speaker as harsh even if the high frequencies are pristine and the tonal balance is spot on. They want built in natural compression, warmth and softness ala vinyl and low sensitivity speakers like they are used to. You will hear/feel more bumps in the recording/road with the JBL. It's more of a sports car ride.

    Regarding imaging, the JBL's are not going to "disappear" to the degree the Salon's will. Large baffle/driver/horn radiating areas exhibit what I call low surface loudness (low sound density) like a piano, compared to a small 1 inch dome tweeter which has high surface loudness (high sound density) like a trumpet. On piano the JBL probably images more correctly in terms of scale, on a trumpet the Salon pin points it better between the speakers. It has been my experience that live music does not image like the playback from typical high end audio systems. One generally listens to live music at a far greater distance away than under home conditions and this causes more and longer room reflections to significantly blur imaging. The imaging effect of speakers "disappearing" in my opinion is an artifact from listening to recorded music in the sweet spot under relative near field conditions. I personally am not willing to trade away the dynamics and low distortion high output of the JBL for this artifact.

    Perhaps because I play guitar in a live band, I find the JBL far more exciting, fun and realistic to listen too. However my experience in sales shows that the majority of "audiophile" listeners would prefer the Salon. However lately we have converted more people from the luxury car to the sports car ride. Perhaps the retro trend of rediscovering high efficiency speakers has something to do with this?

    Finally, knowing you found the TAD Compact Reference One's fatiguing in the treble and are currently happy with Sonus Fabers (which I would describe as very polite in dynamics and soft in the treble), I would question whether the 4367 and it's horn top end is for you. Certainly you should not buy without hearing them first. One last thing to consider is the different form factor and your listening room. The JBL's are short and wide, the Revel's tall and narrow.

  15. #45
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    Hi John,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, in depth no less, and give me the flavor of each speaker.

    I totally understand what you are getting at and could be ready for a speaker like the 4367 to "balance" what I already have. I suspect the choice of amplifier could play an important role in maximizing the character of the 4367's. Maybe a sweeter solid state or tube amp could be a great compliment to them and still bring the excitement factor.

    I only brought up the Studio2 because I owned them for a while and have to be honest. They were glorious with my CJ ART monos. I fondly remember sleepless nights endlessly playing "one more song" before bed. I suspect the Salon2 would be similar because I have friends with them and I love going to hear their systems.

    Maybe if I had the CR-1's now, I'd be more inclined to work them to my advantage but there's no way I'd go back now. Time for something fun and exciting that does not need tremendous power to shine.

    I do have several different amps that should be perfect on the 4367 and other similar speakers.

    Thank you again and I look forward to reading more and talking to you should I decide to pull the trigger.

    ps. For what it's worth, I thought about Magico too. I was hoping the S3 would be slated for a mark 2 upgrade as well. I'd be afraid to buy now based on all the recent updates and with my luck, once the speakers are delivered, the new version will be announced. In my mind, Magico are technically perfect but lack a little soul like my Strads have in spades.

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